Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: -sen/-ssen/-son/-sson What About -zen?

  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Friday, September 17th, 2010 @ 04:38 AM
    Ethnicity
    scando-friso
    Ancestry
    frisia and scandinavia
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Netherlands Netherlands
    State
    Friesland Friesland
    Location
    Frisia
    Gender
    Family
    In a steady relationship
    Occupation
    large business owner
    Politics
    conservative
    Religion
    chritisian
    Posts
    202
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    -sen/-ssen/-son/-sson What About -zen?

    ok so i have heard of many people around scandinavia and especially in the netherlands and northern germany of people with surnames that resemble very scandinavian surnames. franzen, knutzen, woltzen, janzen, isakzen and i am curious if maybe these are immigrants from scandinavia or perhaps a language conversion. does anyone know??

  2. #2
    Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Funding Membership Inactive
    žeudiskaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Online
    Wednesday, December 21st, 2016 @ 07:34 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Deutsch
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Minnesota Minnesota
    Location
    Twin Cities Metro
    Gender
    Age
    35
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Ethnic Neo-Tribalist
    Posts
    492
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Many of those names sounds quite German as they are.

    Remember that Germanic languages are all in the same linguistic tree. Even if one name is Scandinavian, it can be German in it's own right as well.
    "So, yes, we are better than others. Our worldviews are better than those of others. This does not need to be universally true, it is enough when it is true for us." - velvet

    "Our blood unity is of infinitely more worth than religious particularities;" - Chlodovech

  3. #3
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Friday, September 17th, 2010 @ 04:38 AM
    Ethnicity
    scando-friso
    Ancestry
    frisia and scandinavia
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Netherlands Netherlands
    State
    Friesland Friesland
    Location
    Frisia
    Gender
    Family
    In a steady relationship
    Occupation
    large business owner
    Politics
    conservative
    Religion
    chritisian
    Posts
    202
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Erlkoenig View Post
    Many of those names sounds quite German as they are.

    Remember that Germanic languages are all in the same linguistic tree. Even if one name is Scandinavian, it can be German in it's own right as well.
    but for the most case -zen in the usage of -sen as in scandinavian names.. i am not sure where it comes from. why is it with a "z" rather than "s"?? perhaps germanification of scandinavian names/immigrants as compared to anglification. just like the name "Isaksen" is almost strictly scandinavian (norwegian/danish) maybe the germans changed scandinavian immigrants from names like "Isaksen" to a more german looking name such as "Isakzen" or "Knutsen" to "Knutzen". thats what i am curious of.

  4. #4
    Moderator
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Funding Membership Inactive
    GroeneWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Dutch
    Subrace
    Don't know
    Country
    Netherlands Netherlands
    State
    Utrecht Utrecht
    Gender
    Age
    39
    Family
    Single adult
    Religion
    Heathen
    Posts
    3,107
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    367
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    521
    Thanked in
    294 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Erlkoenig View Post
    Remember that Germanic languages are all in the same linguistic tree. Even if one name is Scandinavian, it can be German in it's own right as well.
    Indeed. One must also remember that this kind of naming was also practiced outside of Scandinavia for some time. Alto other kind of last names where also used. For example Janzen probably originally meant your where the son of someone called Jan. However in the course of time, and more precisely with the coming of civic records, children simply gained the same last name as their father.
    The sense of honor is of so fine and delicate a nature that
    it is only to be met with in minds which are naturally noble or
    cultivated by good examples and a refined education.
    - Sir Richard Steele

  5. #5
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Friday, September 17th, 2010 @ 04:38 AM
    Ethnicity
    scando-friso
    Ancestry
    frisia and scandinavia
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Netherlands Netherlands
    State
    Friesland Friesland
    Location
    Frisia
    Gender
    Family
    In a steady relationship
    Occupation
    large business owner
    Politics
    conservative
    Religion
    chritisian
    Posts
    202
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by GroeneWolf View Post
    Indeed. One must also remember that this kind of naming was also practiced outside of Scandinavia for some time. Alto other kind of last names where also used. For example Janzen probably originally meant your where the son of someone called Jan. However in the course of time, and more precisely with the coming of civic records, children simply gained the same last name as their father.
    might i add to everyone. these "z" variation spellings are also to a lesser extent common all throught norway and scandinavia.

    such as Thea Knutzen (Norwegian), Egill Knutzen (Norwegian), Sjoerd Woltzen (Norwegian)

  6. #6
    Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Funding Membership Inactive
    žeudiskaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Online
    Wednesday, December 21st, 2016 @ 07:34 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Deutsch
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Minnesota Minnesota
    Location
    Twin Cities Metro
    Gender
    Age
    35
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Ethnic Neo-Tribalist
    Posts
    492
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    7
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nordfrisk View Post
    but for the most case -zen in the usage of -sen as in scandinavian names.. i am not sure where it comes from. why is it with a "z" rather than "s"?? perhaps germanification of scandinavian names/immigrants as compared to anglification. just like the name "Isaksen" is almost strictly scandinavian (norwegian/danish) maybe the germans changed scandinavian immigrants from names like "Isaksen" to a more german looking name such as "Isakzen" or "Knutsen" to "Knutzen". thats what i am curious of.

    I think that the "z" is merely a more German trait, whereas the Nose languages used "s" a little bit more? They should yield different pronunciations. At least, in German S=/=Z.

    Edit: I think in the case of Knutzen, or the like, for German names it may be closer to simply the infinitive form of the word, rather than to necessarily imply lineage?
    "So, yes, we are better than others. Our worldviews are better than those of others. This does not need to be universally true, it is enough when it is true for us." - velvet

    "Our blood unity is of infinitely more worth than religious particularities;" - Chlodovech

  7. #7
    Moderator
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Funding Membership Inactive
    Sigurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Online
    Wednesday, September 30th, 2020 @ 09:35 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Bavarii, Saxones, Suebi, Alamanni
    Subrace
    Borreby + Atlantonordoid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    Location
    Einöde in den Alpen
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Zodiac Sign
    Libra
    Family
    Engaged
    Politics
    Tradition & Homeland
    Religion
    Odinist
    Posts
    9,129
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    77
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    418
    Thanked in
    301 Posts
    There is also the Nightwish singer, Anette Olzon, who hails from Sweden. Essentially, all it seems to be is a "confusion" of orthography. Trust the farmer to spell his name; we have one line in our ancestry that was spelt Royacher in one generation and Rojacher in the next, and a few generations back was simply Roiacher. Similar letters used for similar phonemes seems to be the problem, trust the farmer to spell his name.

    As far as Scandinavia is concerned, we have a linguistic curiosity which becomes almost ridiculous in the example of Sweden: We have the issue of patronymics being dropped very late (by law in 1901), but certainly a long time after the first Svenska Akademiens Ordlista (which was published in 1801). This actually like provides for a particularly long fluctuation time of "changeover" between full patronymic surnames > first use of inherited surnames > first use of patronyms as inherited surname > and eventual use of all names as inherited surname --- Because the ending -son would likely have been standardised by an edition of SAOL, the -zon spellings are probably all of some age.

    For Denmark and Norway I wouldn't have a clue, especially since they were earlier to adopt inherited surnames (and curiously later spelling reforms), but what could be a hint is that at points in time <z> and <s> have been used interchangeably in several languages, including some Nordic languages: We have varying speillings of Ķslensk and Ķslenzk; and that in the highly regulated Icelandic language - so I would not be too worried.

    That is because surnames are a casus apartus anyway; sometimes they change orthography from generation to generation, sometimes they can be very stubborn and we get surnames such as Steltzer or Meltzer or Schultze or Hartz, which shouldn't even orthographically exist in German because there hasn't been a <tz> allowed to follow after liquida as <r> and <l> for quite a while now.

    So let's just settle on the issue that a surname is something very personal and that you could thus essentially spell it virtually any way you pleased: One brother might prefer the spelling Grünwald and the next might prefer the spelling Grynwaldt, and that's simply how they get passed on for the rest of it.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  8. #8
    Retarded in mysterious ways
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    Žoreišar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Online
    11 Hours Ago @ 10:21 PM
    Ethnicity
    Scandinavian
    Gender
    Posts
    2,798
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,901
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,939
    Thanked in
    984 Posts
    Just to clear things up; any use of the letter Z in either names or words is highly uncommon in Continental Scandinavian. Even in Icelandic, you'd probably have to read go through an entire news paper before finding a single Z printed.

    Pretty much the only reason why letters like Z, X, W and C (the latter with the exception of Sweden) are in our alphabets, is to write foreign names and words. The fact that you can find a small amount of people with a surname containing any of these letters, suggests rather non-Scandinavian ancestry than there being a tendency of using these letters interchangeably with the common letters in Scandinavia.

  9. #9
    Lost in Melancholia
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Funding Membership Inactive
    Thusnelda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Bavarian tribe
    Ancestry
    Bavarian
    Subrace
    Nordid-Borreby
    State
    Bavaria Bavaria
    Location
    Over the hills and far away
    Gender
    Age
    36
    Occupation
    Breathing the forest
    Politics
    Regionalist-conservative
    Religion
    Įsatrś/Forn Sišr
    Posts
    4,393
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    85
    Thanked in
    72 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by nordfrisk View Post
    just like the name "Isaksen" is almost strictly scandinavian (norwegian/danish) maybe the germans changed scandinavian immigrants from names like "Isaksen" to a more german looking name such as "Isakzen" or "Knutsen" to "Knutzen". thats what i am curious of.
    Well, I don“t think that Northern Germans with the "z"-form are very many in quantity. The mild form with "s" is far more common: Hansen, Jacobsen, Petersen, Christensen, etc. I don“t know any German with the sharp "z"-form like "Isakzen" or "Knutzen".

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #10
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Online
    Friday, September 17th, 2010 @ 04:38 AM
    Ethnicity
    scando-friso
    Ancestry
    frisia and scandinavia
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Netherlands Netherlands
    State
    Friesland Friesland
    Location
    Frisia
    Gender
    Family
    In a steady relationship
    Occupation
    large business owner
    Politics
    conservative
    Religion
    chritisian
    Posts
    202
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts
    i just think it seems rather odd considering Knutzen similar to the Scandinavian Knutsen "son of Knut" is found even in Germany considered Knut is a very scandinavian name and not German. just odd i find.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 11 Zen Stories
    By Ulf in forum Comparative Religion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Saturday, September 20th, 2008, 11:24 PM
  2. The Meaning and Context of Zen (by Julius Evola)
    By Frans_Jozef in forum Comparative Religion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Friday, November 18th, 2005, 09:01 PM
  3. Not Tamper With 2nd Amendment? 'Sen. Kerry Already Has,' Says CCRKBA
    By Ewergrin in forum Articles & Current Affairs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Friday, October 29th, 2004, 10:16 PM
  4. Classify Sun Yat Sen
    By Evolved in forum Anthropological Taxonomy
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Friday, March 26th, 2004, 10:56 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •