Lineage of Tradition

[Rev. Jupiter]

If we are to accept the predominant definition of what a "pagan" or "heathen" is in pro-European/pro-Germanic circles, then I can't consider myself anything of the sort. However, as someone who does relate to and associate with Germanic heathens, something really gets at me about the whole thing...

Why is there so much emphasis on ancestry, but little to no attention paid to the actual lineage of tradition i.e. enculturation required to grasp the religion of the ancient Germanics the same way they themselves did?
Why is it that people who proclaim ancestry to be the be-all-end-all of religion nevertheless ignore the fact that, for most of them, the only religion followed by their traceable ancestors is Christianity?

I am not attempting to spark an argument of any kind, nor am I attempting to promote any one religious belief over the other (especially considering my own personal beliefs, but more on that later) I simply find the issue of ancient ancestry vs. immediate tradition to be interesting when considering modern reconstructionists of ancient faiths.

[Heathen_son]

From a heathen perspective, the problem is that the coming of Christianity warped the heathen folk tradition and distorted it's worldview. Obviously no worldview is static, but Christianity is not so much an organic evolution of a folk tradition, as a surgical implant/amputation. Of course, there was symbiosis between heathen and Christian worldviews, which is rather cool (unless you are a purist).

I don't hate Christianity and do not have any religious agenda. I am perfectly able to understand, engage with, and, in places, retain a number of customs belonging to my recent ancestors whilst still maintaining a primarily heathen worldview. Indeed I do not burst into flames when I enter church to attend a funeral, and December 25th is a joyful day for my family

At the end of the day, I have chosen to develop a heathen worldview over a modern Christian one, but there is nothing in doing so that excludes me from the rest of my culture, or community. Indeed, in developing a heathen worldview, I have realised the importance of customs, leading me to respect Christianity in as much as it contains the (dare I say) inherent values of my current community and nation.

Of course, Heathenry does that as well, to some extent

[Lyfing]

Why is there so much emphasis on ancestry, but little to no attention paid to the actual lineage of tradition i.e. enculturation required to grasp the religion of the ancient Germanics the same way they themselves did?

Hi,

The same way they did..??

The next questions should probably be ``Why would anyone have to engage in such activities just to belong to a religion?'' What is the relationship between reconstructing the physical processes of artifact production and religion? The assumption that the reconstructionist is working under, however, is that there is no real religion to be had. For the reconstructionist, 'religion' is something that is culturally independent and self-contained and what the reconstructionist is seeking to experience is not the religion but the worldview, the mindset of the the people in question, which gave birth to certain specific spiritual practices.7 The central spiritual practice of the modern heathen is the blót, for example, a sacrifice the regin (ON), the gods, but the reconstructionist isn't looking to rebuild the ceremony so much as he is trying to experience why the ceremony was even important in the first place. The reconstructionist is looking not for a religion but for that which underlies spiritual practice.

Why is it that people who proclaim ancestry to be the be-all-end-all of religion nevertheless ignore the fact that, for most of them, the only religion followed by their traceable ancestors is Christianity?

That's an easy one..because it's in our blood, our honest blood that got..well umm..what's the word I'm looking for here..??

????? fits the bill..quack..quack..and off to the oven you go..!!

Later,
-Lyfing

[Michael Vilmar Av]

Why is it that people who proclaim ancestry to be the be-all-end-all of religion nevertheless ignore the fact that, for most of them, the only religion followed by their traceable ancestors is Christianity?

Luckily the Old Ways are 'capable' of evolving along with the times so this is not an issue.

At one time Tyre was the main God, then Odin assumed that role, then people got tired of sacrificing to Odin so they switched over to Thor! The nice thing about Polytheism is their is a fair amount of malleability to it.

Also not all of us have just Christian Ancestors! I am half-Norwegian and there are many people out in the woods who kept the Old Ways alive in the Far North! We are the least Christian of the European peoples.

P.S. I myself identify as an Atheist but I am interested in such things from a 'Heritage' stand-point. Also I wouldn't hesitate to bust out some Runic Magic if some Jew tried to Kabbaleh me!

[Heathen_son]

Also not all of us have just Christian Ancestors! I am half-Norwegian and there are many people out in the woods who kept the Old Ways alive in the Far North! We are the least Christian of the European peoples.

A stronger claim could probably be made by some Baltic/Finno-Ugric groups.

[Rodskarl Dubhgall]

Yes, the direct "apostolic" lineage of initiation within Indogermanic Forn Sed was lost long ago, between Rome and Persia, but Indogermanic religion didn't die out in India, while it's not like Christianity and Islam couldn't reformulate Judaism in the absence of the high priesthood. Jews have Israel without the line of David on a throne in Jerusalem and they still haven't rebuilt the temple of Solomon. Would you say that Judaism has no place in today's world, when you see reconstructionists influencing world governments in their favor?

One thing about Christianity bothers me a whole lot, is their support for Israel all the while our European temples remain crumbling tourist curiosities. Christianity profited from this cultural defacement and we still see Islam committing rabid acts of iconoclastic vandalism against Persianate symbols. Why shouldn't we hearken to India for a living, breathing paganism and use academic sources to rebuild what is known of our ancestors, rather than every generation onward conceding our heritage a legacy lost, when Jewry violently oppose obstructions for their restoration?

I don't wish an ill fate like that of Rome and Persia upon India and it's a good thing that the East India Company saved those people by a modern Alexandrian conquest of the Mughal Sultanate. Heathens can reconnect with our European ancestors in the West while maybe Hindus can assist Parsees in the restoration of Zoroastrianism for Iran. It's telling that Christians find spiritual comfort in Jews getting back up to speed and appreciate the fervor of Muslims, as they gather together with the fraudulent charges that it's they whose religions are under attack, having destroyed everyone else's religious peace in the process of getting to their present entitlement complex today. If only Rome and Persia were in the old position to persecute Christianity and Islam, but Judaism is the root that must be cut for them to die.

If the OP thinks lineage of tradition is fundamental, then such a stipulation should be answered with rhetoric: "Do you think that Indogermanic Farsi people ought to remain Shi'ite second class citizens in the Arabic world via Islam, or have Aryan glory?" What his question indicates, is fear of breaking free of Christian Shari'a, I mean canon laws. Since we have been allowed some bit of prerogative since the modern revolutions in the West, opportunity knocks and so, carpe diem. I as a free Germanic man don't want to waste my life at war with our roots just to satisfy the arrangements made in Rome 1700 years ago. That's something for Mediterranean nations to figure out on their own, but I would support them taking back their ways of life through restoring the temples where churches are now, with the pendulum swinging back to normal.