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Thread: The Merits of a Christian Europe

  1. #181
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Hey, throughout I have not stated that Christianity was the cause of anyone's greatness. However, my whole opinion on the matter is that hatred of Christianity, and being ashamed of Christianity, is just a more subtle form of white guilt. Now, of course Christianity has caused grief and wars, and there have been corrupt Christians throughout our history; no one is denying that--when an entire continent is unanimously Christian, of course there will be some who are corrupt. My point is, whether the heathens and atheists like it or not, Christianity and Christian culture is an essential factor of our Western history and culture. We cannot even begin to fathom what our history or culture would be like without it because thats just not how our history unfolded. Whether they like it or not, most white men and women from about the 4th to 7th centuries all the way up until the early 20th century, and still continuing on today, though losing numbers rapidly, were Christians. I doubt all these people unanimously believed in Christianity just because they were afraid not to. I doubt artists would paint those beautiful paintings, build those majestic cathedrals, and conduct all that music to the glory of God just because they were afraid to do otherwise; they were inspired by Christianity. I doubt people would allow themselves to be martyred and die fighting the Muslims and heathens if they did not have a conviction of truth in what they believed.

    Christianity has caused beneficial effects to our society, culture, and civilization and anyone who denies this is really just ignoring the facts of history they don't like or agree with. I recommend reading this article-

    http://crossandquill.com/journey/?page_id=267

    Here are some excerpts-

    "The positive influence of Christianity is far reaching especially in the rich history and culture of Western Civilization despite a long standing ignorance or adamant denial of its contributions. The Bible itself is responsible for much of the language, literature, and fine arts we enjoy today as its artists and composers were heavily influenced by its writings. Paul Maier, in writing the forward to the book How Christianity Changed the World by Alvin J. Schmidt, says this about the profound impact Christianity has had on the development of Western Civilization:

    “No other religion, philosophy, teaching, nation, movement—whatever—has so changed the world for the better as Christianity has done. Its shortcomings, clearly conceded by this author, are nevertheless heavily outweighed by its benefits to all mankind” (Schmidt 9).

    Schmidt quotes Lynn White, historian of medieval science, as saying “From the thirteenth century onward into the eighteenth every major scientist, in effect, explained his motivations in religious terms”

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    Do you think Beethoven prayed to God, saying: "Please write the 9th symphony for me, put it into my head, and then I will proceed to copy it down, as is." It took him six years to write the thing. This is clearly evidence of him slaving over this work before it finally achieved its greatness.
    From wikipedia-

    "Beethoven's faith in God as experienced through art is an important theme in his conversation books, his belief that art is a force unto itself, and that infuse his search for redemption through and in music.

    "God is closer to me than others of my art"
    —Beethoven"

  2. #182
    Senior Member Zogbot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Christianity has caused beneficial effects to our society, culture, and civilization and anyone who denies this is really just ignoring the facts of history they don't like or agree with. I recommend reading this article-
    You're attributing things to Christianity for which it isn't responsible. The cause of Aryan greatness is not Christianity, it is the Aryan blood. Christian Negroes or Asians never did anything even remotely comparable to us, proving that it's not Christianity that caused our development. It (Christianity) just happened to come about during a time when paganism had come to the end of its road, therefore replacing the old spirituality with a new, most of which wasn't even adopted by the people, as Europe was only nominally Christian.

    Look at Liberia. These Negroes were raised Christian, born and bred in America and yet none of the Christian ideals or democratic political Republican ideals had any sway whatsoever on their behavior, and today their nation is a mess as is usual of Negroes. Show me the Asian that has written a Cantata. After you can't do that, repeat to me in a lower voice how Christianity created Europe. You think you are looking down on the barbarians when really you are looking up. To hide the fact that it was our blood, not our religion, you have to deny the genius and manliness of the 'barbarians' and extol yourself as a the 'civilized' men who built Europe.

    Biology is a good deal stronger than Christianity.

  3. #183
    Senior Member Wulfram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    From wikipedia-

    "Beethoven's faith in God as experienced through art is an important theme in his conversation books, his belief that art is a force unto itself, and that infuse his search for redemption through and in music.

    "God is closer to me than others of my art"
    —Beethoven"
    Also from wiki:

    The content of his music is most intriguing, oftentimes reflecting views of several different religions. His own religious views could never be determined, although Franz Haydn considered him an atheist. He distrusted priests and wrote about paganism in several of his works. He became increasingly devoted to Pantheism and was noted to have been a man searching for God. Fragments of Indian texts can be found in his diary, showing an interest in Hinduism and occasionally concepts of deism. Rumors surround the events around his deathbed, his actual death being in 1827 at the age of 56, although he did allow a priest to administer his last rites. After this, he is said to have cried out, “Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over,” but no one could say for sure whether he was referring to his life, or the rites."

  4. #184
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    You're attributing things to Christianity for which it isn't responsible. The cause of Aryan greatness is not Christianity, it is the Aryan blood. Christian Negroes or Asians never did anything even remotely comparable to us, proving that it's not Christianity that caused our development. It (Christianity) just happened to come about during a time when paganism had come to the end of its road, therefore replacing the old spirituality with a new, most of which wasn't even adopted by the people, as Europe was only nominally Christian.

    Look at Liberia. These Negroes were raised Christian, born and bred in America and yet none of the Christian ideals or democratic political Republican ideals had any sway whatsoever on their behavior, and today their nation is a mess as is usual of Negroes. Show me the Asian that has written a Cantata. After you can't do that, repeat to me in a lower voice how Christianity created Europe. You think you are looking down on the barbarians when really you are looking up. To hide the fact that it was our blood, not our religion, you have to deny the genius and manliness of the 'barbarians' and extol yourself as a the 'civilized' men who built Europe.

    Biology is a good deal stronger than Christianity.
    I think you are still confused. Of course Christian Negroes couldn't accomplish these things, and of course it was the European race's greatness. I am right there with you, or else I wouldn't be on this website. My point is that, if you just read some basic history about Christianity you can see it's influence proved beneficial to our civilization. Whether it had any effect on it's greatness or not is inconsequential to my point-- if you despise or wish to remove Christian elements of our culture, you simply cannot because it has been ingrained in our culture, perhaps the central element of our culture, for a few centuries short of 2000 years. That is why Western civilization is often referred to as the CHRISTIAN West, to distinguish it from the ancient Western world.

    I never held the position that Christianity created Europe, however it is one of the essential elements, along with the Europoid race, Celtic-Germanic culture, and Greco-Roman culture. Those elements make up Western history, culture, and civilization as we know it. Take away one, and it would be unrecognizable. We could postulate what a Pagan Europe would have or would not have achieved, but it doesn't matter because thats not the reality of our history.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    Also from wiki:
    A possibility, but doubtful (or should I say wishful thinking for the anti-Christian crowd haha). Also from the same wiki:

    "His belief in a personal God is undisputed;"

    "His religious views derived from the "enlightened Catholicism" of the Rhineland"

    "Beethoven was assuredly Christian, although perhaps not a traditional Roman Catholic."

    "Beethoven composed many religious works"

    And a quote a week before his death,

    "Indeed, a hard lot has fallen upon me! But I resign myself to the will of destiny, and only ask God constantly to grant through His divine will that, so long as I must still suffer death in life here, I am protected from penury. This will give me the strength to bear my lot, however hard and grievous, with resignation to the will of the Almighty."

  5. #185
    Senior Member Zogbot's Avatar
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    I don't postulate about pagan Europe, I recognize that it had come to its natural end. To say that we can't replace Christianity is the same thing pagans said back in the day. 1000-1600 years is nothing in the history of the various European peoples. Christianity has come to its natural end like paganism once did. Greater men than I recognized this almost a hundred years ago and sought to create a new spirituality, based on the 'worship' of racial purity. Christianity is completely foreign to the Aryan mind and therefore is dissolving now that it is not being upheld by the tip of a sword. You need to face that.

  6. #186
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    I don't postulate about pagan Europe, I recognize that it had come to its natural end. To say that we can't replace Christianity is the same thing pagans said back in the day. 1000-1600 years is nothing in the history of the various European peoples. Christianity has come to its natural end like paganism once did. Greater men than I recognized this almost a hundred years ago and sought to create a new spirituality, based on the 'worship' of racial purity. Christianity is completely foreign to the Aryan mind and therefore is dissolving now that it is not being upheld by the tip of a sword. You need to face that.
    You need to face the fact that Western civilization is not as old as European people, and that it began with those essential elements I have described multiple times, Christianity being one of them. You need to face that there is not much we can replace Christianity with, aside from atheism (which isn't a realistic alternative to the spiritually inclined) that would not alter our culture and introduce even more foreign elements. Neo-paganism will never gain a following aside from some fringe groups, and that will leave us with a foreign religion such as Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and so forth. You can be Christian and respect racial purity; our ancestors have been Christian for all that time and racial purity is something they practiced all the way until this past century, as late as 1967 in America. Just because Christianity is a universal religion does not mean we should import foreign races into our land and breed with them; in fact, as I have also said earlier, with increased secularization and decreased Christianity has come increased power of the Jewish elite, increased amounts of Westerners disrespecting their past, increased amounts of miscegenation, and a decrease in Western European unity.

    If Christianity is foreign to the Aryan mind, why did our ancestors practice it for so long and center their entire civilization around? Is it was because they were a bunch of brainwashed dolts? That doesn't sound very Aryan or great to me.

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    Senior Member Zogbot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    You need to face the fact that Western civilization is not as old as European people, and that it began with those essential elements I have described multiple times, Christianity being one of them.
    'Western' civilization as you call it is simply an outgrowth of classical civilization as in Greece or Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    You need to face that there is not much we can replace Christianity with, aside from atheism (which isn't a realistic alternative to the spiritually inclined) that would not alter our culture and introduce even more foreign elements.
    The spiritually inclined aren't really spiritually inclined. You can replace their Christianity with any other authority, such as obedience to the racial state, and they will feel just as home as with Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    You can be Christian and respect racial purity;
    Wrong. There is nothing in Christianity that says to keep your genes clean of foreign influence. Modern Christianity, as noted in this thread, is much closer to original pre-Aryanized Christianity. The pervert in the white dress, also called the Pope, says that an Aboriginal was made in God's image. This is what Christianity says and that is not to our benefit. Judaism would be a much better religion for Whites because it teaches that non-Jews are animals with satanic souls made only to serve jews. Yet Judaism Lite says we are all God's sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    our ancestors have been Christian for all that time and racial purity is something they practiced all the way until this past century, as late as 1967 in America.
    You obfuscate and, I begin to suspect, knowingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Just because Christianity is a universal religion does not mean we should import foreign races into our land and breed with them;
    Where in Christianity is this opposed? Go forth and mix and bring all people under God so that they may enter the imaginary holy kingdom in the afterlife.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    in fact, as I have also said earlier, with increased secularization and decreased Christianity has come increased power of the Jewish elite, increased amounts of Westerners disrespecting their past, increased amounts of miscegenation, and a decrease in Western European unity.
    There was hardly ever European unity to begin with. For most of our history we have been tribal, which is also reflected in religion, especially after the reformation. Various Lutheran denominations are in fact genetic clusters of people. The reason for current jew domination is that certain technologies took time to develop, here concerning mainly mass media in the form of TV, radio & movies. All Churches today unanimously support the importation of untold millions of brown & yellow mongrels into our lands and call upon all Whites to mix with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    If Christianity is foreign to the Aryan mind, why did our ancestors practice it for so long and center their entire civilization around? Is it was because they were a bunch of brainwashed dolts? That doesn't sound very Aryan or great to me.
    As I've tried telling you, they didn't. They were mostly nominally Christian and paid heavy lip service to this faith. There's nothing about Christianity that we need and indeed many things are in it that affect us negatively.

  8. #188
    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    I don't think you can compare Christian Europe with Pagan Europe because both lived during radically different times.

    I grew up a strong Christian and in college I lost my faith and it caused me to blame Christianity for my feelings of misleading me the first 20 years of my life. I started telling myself things like "Maybe had I not been Christian I would have this girlfriend, I would have focused more on exercise and having fun" etc.

    But as I began to do ancestry work I noticed how deeply Christianity is a part of who I am.

    In the wills of my ancestors as far back as records go- 1500's- every single one deeply gave thanks God. They were VERY moral people and much of their life revolved around the ideas of Christianity. The French Huguenots fleeing from the religious war where Catholics would go house by house killing all protestants. The Pilgrims seeking religious freedom on the mayflower. Reverends coming to the new world to teach the morality and goodness of faith in god. Christian Germans fleeing the Napoleonic wars. French Catholics bringing Church Bells bestowed from the King of France himself.

    All of these are my ancestors and- no matter what- are a part of who I am. Their genetics flow in my blood, and I'm proud of their determination for religious freedom, for morality, for goodwill. These are my people and these are the similar concepts that I hold and will carry on.

    If you were to read almost any poem or story from Germany, England or anywhere in Europe after 7th century (for most) or 12th century(for all) it WILL be about Christianity.

    Even-though I no longer believe in Christianity- I hope to still go to Church, to still celebrate Christmas, I still pray before festive family meals. It is this tradition and beliefs that my ancestors held for o so long that I hope to keep alive and pass onto my next generations.

    An argument similar to this can be said for Pagans but if you do so- do not disrespect Christianity and your ancestors.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Zogbot and Plantagent, I think you're both correct.

    Christianity provided the social structure; colleges, a unifying ideology amongst Europeans against other foreign cultures and peoples.

    Our race provided us with the High IQ (read "the 10,000 year explosion" to understand how our IQ got so high) to develop all the inventions and ideas, make all the discoveries and build great societies (which were unified under Christianity).

    Also technically,

    If you look at Celtic religions (ex. the God Danu- Danube River)- they share quite a bit of similarity with certain eastern religions which hint at a common origin not too long ago. In other words they originated outside of Europe.

    If the Germanic languages are foreign (originated as a proto-european language between the Black and Caspian Sea in Russia) Do you think maybe the Germanic (like the Celtic Religions) may have originated outside of Scandinavia?

    How do you know for certain that it is the original religion of Germanics?

    As far back as we can track records the Religions, Languages and Cultures typically originate in far away places. Why would you think the Germanic Pagan Religion would be different?

    Anyways I don't really care about religion. I think they are all ridiculous if taken at face value. As long as we are sane people none of us should be arguing over these stupid topics (Christianity was better! Paganism would have been better! Germanics are closer to out actual ancestors!)- Who really cares. Why not respect both our Christian ancestors and our Pagan ancestors. I only titled the thread this way because I felt the Christians were overwhelmingly being slammed by Pagans too often on this site.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    'Western' civilization as you call it is simply an outgrowth of classical civilization as in Greece or Rome.
    With the added elements of Germanic ideals and culture as well as Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    The spiritually inclined aren't really spiritually inclined. You can replace their Christianity with any other authority, such as obedience to the racial state, and they will feel just as home as with Christianity.
    That's a fairly sweeping and ignorant statement. The spiritually inclined aren't really spiritually inclined? I don't think people who are spiritually or mystically inclined or who are concerned with ontological, cosmological, and philosophical answers to the meaning of life and death can be satiated with obedience to the racial state which is entirely physical and dealing with this temporary existence on Earth. Though I would be the first to agree with you that we should have a more racially-oriented state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    Wrong. There is nothing in Christianity that says to keep your genes clean of foreign influence. Modern Christianity, as noted in this thread, is much closer to original pre-Aryanized Christianity. The pervert in the white dress, also called the Pope, says that an Aboriginal was made in God's image. This is what Christianity says and that is not to our benefit. Judaism would be a much better religion for Whites because it teaches that non-Jews are animals with satanic souls made only to serve jews. Yet Judaism Lite says we are all God's sheep.
    Wrong. Just because Christianity does not explicitly say, "Do not mix outside your race" does not mean we could not entertain or enforce that idea. That is the purpose of separation of church and state. I think if you were to go to medieval Europe and suggest an Englishman to mix with an Arab, even a Christian Arab, he would be appalled, and this was the most devoutly Christian period of our existence. And as I stated earlier, if God created man in his image it would not necessarily preclude the idea that God also set into motion the process of evolution allowing for certain races to advance beyond the state of the Negro or Aboriginal. As I also said, I do not think Christianity, especially modern Christianity, is free from criticism. I personally am critical of the actions and thoughts of many Christians today, but that does not blind me to the fact that Christianity was an essential element of our culture. It also does not mean that if we had a racial-state free from miscegenation that Christianity could not be the dominate faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    You obfuscate and, I begin to suspect, knowingly.
    My point was, though Europeans have committed miscegenation throughout their history (mostly European males breeding with foreign women during conquest or colonization), that during the Christian medieval and Early modern periods they maintained a fairly racially pure doctrine which continued until close to our modern era, where we can see secularization and de-Christianization has led to the repealing of miscegenation laws. It was not an official practice in many places but just common sense. Christianity cannot be blamed for miscegenation nor can it be said to have prevented it, but it certainly did not cause it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    There was hardly ever European unity to begin with. For most of our history we have been tribal, which is also reflected in religion, especially after the reformation. Various Lutheran denominations are in fact genetic clusters of people. The reason for current jew domination is that certain technologies took time to develop, here concerning mainly mass media in the form of TV, radio & movies. All Churches today unanimously support the importation of untold millions of brown & yellow mongrels into our lands and call upon all Whites to mix with them.
    However, there was a European unity in the idea of Christendom. Christendom of the medieval ages, though it was not free from disputes or in-fighting, held Western European together as a loose cohesive unit. This is why certain actions taken during that earlier period, such as the French allying with the Turks, caused an outrage and controversy throughout Christendom. We have always been fighting with each other, but pre-Reformation Europe was about as unified as we ever were aside from the time of Augustus and the Pax Romana...but this did not include the Northern European peoples like the Germanics or Celts, who are what this forum is often concerned about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zogbot View Post
    As I've tried telling you, they didn't. They were mostly nominally Christian and paid heavy lip service to this faith. There's nothing about Christianity that we need and indeed many things are in it that affect us negatively.
    I'm sorry but this is incorrect. People don't throw their lives away and dedicate their life's work and art to something they just pay lip-service to. Europe was Christian throughout it's history because they truly believed in the faith, and I am willing to bet our ancestors would be insulted by the idea that they just paid lip-service to Christ. And throughout my point is not whether we need Christianity or how it effects us, though it has had positive effects as I have pointed out, but rather that you cannot believe that Christianity was not a central influence and has been a driving force of our culture and civilization. Just a glance at history will show you this is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Indeed. If it is civilization that all the fuss is about, some people should drop their provincial Jewish carpenter and start worshipping Jupiter and Mars. Or Horus for that matter.
    I have a couple of issues with this comment but the main one is that it seems to assume any of the old gods can be revived. I think Alfred Rosenberg made a cogent observation in saying that once a religion dies in the hearts of a people, it will never return. This is rather the problem with paganism today. It's sort of a fringe hobby that is akin to groupies making a religion out of Star Wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    It's all about spirituality as opposed to materialism. A lot of people, particularly in the so-called "developed" nations, simply don't understand this but ask yourself - are Westerners today any happier than those of bygone ages, or for that matter those still living in these "primitive conditions"?

    Also, I think one has to keep a perspective on all of this because celebrating the spirit of our ancestors is not quite the same thing as advocating a total return to the forests, en masse. It is merely one of the ways in which we honour our past, that all too many of us in this decadent, consumer era now appear to be ashamed of.

    Incidentally, I went to the New Forest in Hampshire at the weekend and it was fantastic to actually experience nature again, well away from the materially-developed but spiritually-deprived towns and cities where folks are trapped in the hustle and bustle of modern life; many of them without even realising it!
    One can enjoy nature and abhor the modern bustle and not get roped into a 'religion' whose remains are scanty at best. I consider myself something of a Thoreauvian, and while he was a very simple living outdoorsman, he didn't feel a need to revive dead gods. He was actually informed by Eastern religion, which for the anti-Christian provides much better instruction on life's questions than the patchwork motifs of Germanic or Celtic paganism

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