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Thread: The Merits of a Christian Europe

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And something that you also cannot or dont want to see is that America got all the outcasts and religious freaks Europe had no use for, who fled Europe because they were persecuted by the Catholic church. Those "real christians" in their various colors, from Amish over the Jesuits to the Yehowa's Witnesses and worse. America was built by these "real christians". Here in Europe, christianity remained to be a very thin layer upon a very Pagan core. American christianity is fundamentally different from christianity, and even from christians, in Europe.

    What America lacks is the Pagan continuity that is very much reality in Europe. There is nothing "neo" about scratching off that layer and get back to the core. And this is what is increasingly happening here, people waking up to the scam christianity is and look for something proper and real.
    I don't know where you got the idea that the Europeans who moved to America were all religious freaks and only left because Europe didn't want them, but I suspect it's not founded in any historical truth but is rather just a convenient remark upholding your unshakable sense of European elitism. It's equally as ridiculous as the belief in American exceptionalism, that we are better because we received the best and brightest Europe had to offer--those with enough fortitude and ambition to leave home for the prospects of life in a distant land. Both are handy oversimplifications used to fit either side's preconceived notions.

    Most Europeans who came to America were religiously identical to their relatives in Europe, and they came here primarily for economic reasons. Only a minority left because of religious persecution. Most of my ancestors were normal Catholics and Lutherans by European standards, something that I can assure you is not unusual here. Furthermore, their decision to come here was entirely autonomous. They weren't simply expelled as rejects. If you were to visit here you'd also see that Christianity is dying as it is Europe, granted, not as severely. Growing up my family would always make fun of the massive "twice a year" crowd, which we've ironically become, who made attending mass on Easter and Christmas Eve a congested nightmare. At my school, I'm not acquaintances with a single person who is seriously religious.

    My point is: Not every American is a Puritan or lives in the Bible Belt. The idea that Christianity in America is fundamentally different from Christianity in Europe, and that as such we didn't inherit genuine European-ness, which you call the "Pagan continuity", doesn't really hold any water. Surely if we lack the Pagan continuity, our fundamentally different Christianity also lacks the Jewish continuity, but you'd probably argue otherwise.

    This was all probably a bit off-topic, and I don't have a horse in this Christianity-Pagan race as I'm entirely non-religious; I just felt compelled to provide a rebuttal to some unfairly slanderous assertions, which I'll just say ironically tend to be made by those most eager to profess American ignorance.

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    Seems to me that she realizes the truth about the mainstream Christianity in central Europe. Evangelicals are not very numerous in Germany, and their adherence to the actual teachings of Christ rather than the burdensome formalism that has evolved over centuries have them pegged as "cults". Velvet is very true in saying that both Catholicism and Lutheranism has remained a "very thin layer upon a very Pagan core" and when these could not adapt to the industrialized modern Germany and address the problems arising from the Armistice of 1918; Germans did seek a new directions in the interwar period, and they sure ended up with something "real" alright--the experience of living in an atheistic totalitarian state. Thankfully there were some Germans who recognized the Truth for what it is and should always be, and searching for "something proper and real" followed the correct path.

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    Plantagenet,

    Could you give us a brief summary what are the hallmarks of Christianity (in your opinion) and how those things changed germanic countries?
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Eh yes. For a non-Christian Atheist this is a tautology, and this is exactly why Christianity must not be supported if its falsehood is assumed.
    Well I agree with you, if Christianity is false it must not be supported. However, for a mere value system, I see within the traditional morality of Christianity (which essentially was the traditional morality of the European people) a superior value system than that of relativist secular humanism that exists today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    It perfectly fits with the assumption that Zeitgeist trumps religion. The past Zeitgeist wasn't degenerate, so religion was secondary.
    So what action can we take if our current Zeitgeist is a degenerate one? This is a Germanic preservation forum, how is preservation possible if the Zeitgeist that trumps everything is one of dissolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Ah yes, so how do Christians know what God wants?
    Through the God-man, Jesus Christ, and his Apostles, the Saints, the Church Fathers, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Why all else? I just said religion, wait, you said it! You said the reason for contemporary degenerate Christians is the current Zeitgeist.
    I never asserted as such, I merely said it was a possibility. Under a Christian world-view, the world is not so deterministic and the existence of free-will would necessitate the possibility of change. It was the influence of the philosophies of a few men of the so-called Enlightenment and its values that have infected Christendom and have made it decline from its former glory. If the power of the media was broken and people were actually taught how not be degenerates, the possibility of removing the degeneracy among contemporary Christians is very real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    As an example, could you justify war with the teachings of pacifism for me?
    I could try--In order reach a state of complete pacifism, war mongers would have to be defeated. If there is an impediment to world pacifism, it would have to be removed. Therefore a war of defense in order to preserve the peace of society or a war to remove the possibility of continual war could be undertaken to achieve a lasting pacifism.

    Of course I am not a pacifist so I don't believe this, but humans are fairly apt at using anything as an excuse for their goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    They certainly could not have used NS (in a supportive sense) to justify the abolishment of NS, this is oxymoronic.
    In a purely logical sense, you are correct. But humans are often quite illogical, especially in large groups. One could say something along the lines of "Hitler has subverted the original purpose of the NS party, we therefore must restore it to what it was meant to be." as a means of using "NS" to abolish NS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    Plantagenet,

    Could you give us a brief summary what are the hallmarks of Christianity (in your opinion) and how those things changed germanic countries?
    A quick summary of some of the influences of Christianity and Christians upon European history and civilization--

    1. Introduced literacy in Germanic countries, creating the possibility of diffusing knowledge on a wider scale.

    2. Brought Germanic countries into the fold of a larger European civilization and unity and enabled some of them (the Franks) to act as the successor of the former Roman Empire and restore order to society.

    3. Abolished slavery of fellow Germanic Christians, abolished human sacrifice.

    4. Created the first hospitals and universities, laying the ground work that launched European civilization to new heights of scientific and technological advancement.

    5. Christian monasteries provided safe-havens for the incessant warfare of the Early Middle Ages and preserved many ancient documents.

    6. Influenced Europeans to create some of the greatest works of art, architecture, sculpture, music, and literature of our civilization.

    7. Created a pan-European spiritual unity that brought together various tribes and nations who would have never had a reason to work together before to accomplish such goals as the defense of Europe from Islamic invasion.

    8. Became the single most influential cultural force in our civilization. Western civilization would have never existed as it was without Christianity.

  5. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Ahh, but herein lies the difference between someone like me and someone of blind faith (say your typical American Protestant.) I believe that this knowledge CAN be known via a mystical and objective experience of higher realities or God.

    There are many names for this--God realization, enlightenment, gnosis, theosis, Irfan, Nirvana, Turiya, knowing the Tao, the philosophia perennis etc. Working toward this goal is the true essence of religion.
    Yet it can not be validated to anyone other than the individual having the experience and so can not be objective.

    The Catch 22 is that in order to experience this, unless one is lucky to have this occur spontaneously, one would need to follow a spiritual ascetic discipline in the first place.
    Naturally. The central tenant of Theism supposes that man is blind but what it fails to reveal is that its blindness was intentional so they may lead. The question arises- if the senses we were born with are not sufficient how are they made so by their repression?

    Interesting. What is it that you do support in this regard?
    In reflection, I would define myself an agnostic/deist, but I would break on one key issue- I find evidence enough in the world that man was not abandoned. I am not a theist due to the arrogant assumptions that theists profess to know about this and not an atheist for the same reason.

  6. #1026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Well I agree with you, if Christianity is false it must not be supported. However, for a mere value system, I see within the traditional morality of Christianity (which essentially was the traditional morality of the European people) a superior value system than that of relativist secular humanism that exists today.
    I agree with you as well, but to be better than what we have today is no real achievement

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    This is a Germanic preservation forum, how is preservation possible if the Zeitgeist that trumps everything is one of dissolution?
    It does not trump everything, I don't know why you keep repeating this.
    E.g. if economical conditions would make people poor and bring them on the verge of starvation, and if then I would ask for a decapitated Nigger head for every soup I hand out, most people would pay, regardless of the Zeitgeist. Biological needs trump Zeitgeist.
    There are methods to change the Zeitgeist, it is just that Christianity is not one of them, or else we wouldn't have so many Christians following the Zeitgeist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    It was the influence of the philosophies of a few men of the so-called Enlightenment and its values that have infected Christendom and have made it decline from its former glory.
    Yes, so it didn't succeed in fighting it off, yet, you proclaim it could do it now somehow. I don't follow this logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    If the power of the media was broken and people were actually taught how not be degenerates, the possibility of removing the degeneracy among contemporary Christians is very real.
    Yes, and among Pagans and Atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    I could try--In order reach a state of complete pacifism, war mongers would have to be defeated. If there is an impediment to world pacifism, it would have to be removed. Therefore a war of defense in order to preserve the peace of society or a war to remove the possibility of continual war could be undertaken to achieve a lasting pacifism.
    While you gave a justification, you didn't use the "teachings of pacifism" for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    One could say something along the lines of "Hitler has subverted the original purpose of the NS party, we therefore must restore it to what it was meant to be." as a means of using "NS" to abolish NS.
    How would that be an abolishment of NS if they restore its true purpose?
    You can't claim something is wrong, by using its truth as a justification. People might try to pull it of, but still, this would only fool idiots, and we are talking about the objective truth of Christian critique about NS.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  7. #1027
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    QUOTE PLANTAGENET:"My rejection of Germanic neo-paganism doesn't have as much to do with its ideals as with its authenticity as a religion and the impossibility of replacing traditional Christianity as the religion for the European people"


    I think i can answer this quite easily : either our gods exist, then our religion can of course be revived. It might not be an exact copy, but then again society has also changed a lot, so religion can and should adapt. A religion that cannot change when everything else changes this drastically, will hinder society necessarily in its development. Now weather this development is always good is an entirely different question we should answer elsewhere.
    Back to revivalism : if the gods exist, then the rituals, the believe etc where created in a relationship between men and gods, and can always be revived again, simply by having the same relationship again (assuming the gods are ready to have again a relationship with us, but i don´t see a real reason why not). So if you believe if heathenism can be revived hangs on one question, and on this question alone, do the heathen gods exist ?
    If you don´t believe they exist you can also not believe that a revival of the belief system could work. So actually all you have is that you don´t believe our gods exist. Well in that case of course you can also not be a heathen ^^ But once you are a heathen, you believe those gods exist, just like you believe your god exists. So your argument, the revival would be stupid (yes i do oversimplify here, but that´s is its core, if you admit it or not), rests on you not believing our gods exist. Its just the typical christian arrogance :"my god is real and yours isn´t" which i find to be quite childish, no matter how much nice justifications and arguments you build around it.


    QUOTE PLANTAGENET:"Perhaps not, but one thing I am quite certain of is that the degenerate tendencies that may have existed in Christian Rome are but a shadow compared to what exists in the West today."
    "So the promotion of homosexuality, pornography, infidelity, or modern leftism in film or television could be classified as a subversive element."

    First of all you talked always about anti christian propaganda, and even somewhere else clearly quoted there would be no propaganda against heathendom, but against CHRISTIANITY. Now when asked for examples suddenly you do a U-turn, and say the propaganda would go against traditional values, so also against heathendom. So which is it ?


    Now about your examples : You really think the old rome was the slightest bit better ? Pornographic pictures you could find in old rome EVERYWHERE : public baths, to decorate the living room etc. and not just in rome. Have a look at pompeji to see how live was in a typical smaller city of the roman empire.
    Homosexuality was not only promoted, but often bisexuality was expected! If you wanted to make a carreer in old rome your best bet was to look for a rich man of power, and share a bed with them, and I dont mean women here.
    Infidelity was the standard in old rome. Everybody who had enough money had a slave or 2 on the side for sexual pleasures, that was not even considered cheating ! Affairs where common.
    Do i even need to mention the fighting of animals and other human beings, often even fihts to the death, for the pleasure and amusement of others ?
    If you really think old rome was less degenerate then today you need a history lesson. Many of the pictures and other finds in pompeji are not even publicly shown, because they are even for our taste to perverted. They shows things like bestiality, and those statues where a proud posession you would have for display in your living room for every one to see. They where not less degenerate, they where even more degenerate. Now while you make just claims, i have named evidence to support my opinion, something you should try out too. You might realize your claims are wrong yourself, and spare us the work of having to prove them wrong.
    There won't be humans in 500 years. Enough people choke themselves when they jerk off we gave it a name. We ain't a species made to last.

    Judging by it´s name common sense must once have been a pretty common thing. When and why did that change, so it became the rare treasure it is today???

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    I hate to bring up this point yet again, but dude, Paganism came first. It predates the Christian Bible by a lot.
    You say that Christianity is better for Europe. How can a religion that bases it's teaching off of the things it stole and watered down from Pagan religions be valid? How can a religion teach people to fear the God that supposedly loves all?
    More wars have been fought in the name of your God than for any other religion. You people can't even agree with each other. I see Catholics fighting Protestants, I see Protestants fighting eac other and I see Catholic fighting each other.
    You teach peace and love yet you can't even practice what you preach, and as soon as someone outside of your religion challenges that, they're suddenly evil and anti-christ. You pick and chose from your own set of rules.
    How can that be better for Europe than Paganism? At least Paganism encourages the most basic of human rights and doesn't instill fear into the hearts of its followers. There are only a few simple rules in Paganism: Don't hurt someone else without good enough reason, that includes yourself. It teaches honour and courage, dying for your people and your family. Not for your religion or your country. When someone was hurt or killed, their family would avenge them. When someone broke the rules, they weren't killed.

    Your religion was worse for Europe, and still is.
    Period.

  9. #1029
    Eala Freia Fresena
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    Genesis 1:1-13
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. and the earth was without form and void; darkness was upon the face of the deep. and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, let there be light: and there was light


    What it basically proves is that the God of the Christians is the God of Darkness, the black God, or Chernobog as the russian veda calls him. The black God claims to have created the light, what a hogwash. That God is a notorius liar and as one sees in the old testament inflicted with a lot of demoneous attitudes.

    Later they made 'Jesus ' a carpenter. That is a mocking of Odin who created the first humans from wood.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

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