Nordish and Nordic
I’ve seen these two words (Nordish and Nordic) thrown around quite a bit. From what I understand Nordish refers to indigenous populations of northern Europe. But I’m not sure on the word Nordic. Some people seem use it in the sense of the Nordic racial classification (Hallstatt Nordic, Keltic Nordic, etc) and others use it interchangeably with Nordish. What definition is correct?
Re: Nordish and Nordic
Nordish is from Mr Richard McCulloch, so he should be able to give the best answer. From what I have understood some Nordish types are Nordid or Nordid-"UP" but most are not.
There are three criterias, that of the skull, stature and colouration. Nordid is then simply someone with a long, narrow skull, high stature and blonde complexion.
Many physical anthropologists divided Nordids into two constitutional body types, one that is more thin, lean or linear, that is ectomorphic/leptoprosopic, and another that tend towards the pycnic/endomorph build.
The quintessential ectomorphic Nordid is the Göta type, which is only common in SE Norway and SW Sweden. Examples of linear Nordids are Jonathan Steadand Christian Olsson
.
Mathias Sammer
and Stefan Effenberg
are of the broader-faced, very low skulled robust and tall Phalian (according to v. Eickstedt, Backman and Lundman a Nordid sub race) type, that tends towards the reddish shades of blonde.
Borreby is defined in different ways. Kaj Birket-Smith call it an Iron Age race. Rolf Nordenstreng see a SE European source. Some indicated a proto-Armenoid, and that the Anholt type in Denmark is a result of that. What is sure is Borreby race skulls were short and high skulled. Some phys. anthrologists (e.g. Renato Biasutti) saw a proto-Dinarid in the Borreby.
Anglo-Saxon is only from Coon. Phalian could be seen as a "root type", and Anglo-Saxon a blended form. One can interpret that the Gelderland man in one of his plates (32, NORDICS ALTERED BY NORTHWESTERN EUROPEAN UPPER PALAEOLITHIC MIXTURE: II) is of that type. Coon has name for almost every physical form among the Europids. His scheme is bold. His Anglo-Saxon is, according to himself, from the viewpoint of Hallstatt Nordic, a type that is an ordinary Iron Age Nordic with Brünn and Borreby elements, and with a larger ratio of Corded. It is more or less a central European Nordid mixed with old northwestern European elements. I think that Bert Doorn is a good representative.
Keltic Nordic is also only a term by Coon. It is formed from an Iron Age Nordic with Dinaric elements. However, the vault is low or very low (the specialised Aran type). The nasal prominency, exaggerately sloping forehead and the relatively small lower facial segment suggest an infusion of the latter element. Leslie Howard may be a good representative:.
Another one is Ralf Fiennes (see what is typical for the type, a long a long upper face in proportion to the total face, a jaw that is broad at the gonial angles, but with a mandible that is relatively shallow):
Coon believed that a reduction of the overgrown dolichocephalic Upper Palae-olithic ancestor of Brünn (which was high skulled finding and I cannot understand why he name it for a low skulled type in mainly Ireland) or Cro-Magnon type result in result "in a quite un-Nordic morphologically as well as in constitutional type (read above).
Coon's thesis is that Nordid is a blending of "early Danubian Mediterranean strain with the later Corded element". He believed that such a predominance can be isolated while others preserve the blended form. So when Coon speak of modern types it is reemergences of original components.
I think that for the sake of ease one can lump together Phalian and Brünn. Coon's Scandinavian Brünn is somewhat similar to Lundman's Västmanland type. The Brünn probably lack the big teeth and alveolar prognathism (which is so much associated with English Anglo-Saxons) of the Phalian. The Brünn in his Anglo-Saxon should be derived from Phalian of what Coon call Brünn in Germany. Some physical anthropologist call Phalian Nordid, a variety of it, others say close to Nordid and a Cro Magnoid survivor, or possessing proto-morphic features that resemble Cro Magnon man.
Unlike professional physical anthropologists, we commoners see mainly pigmentation, and it would not surprise me if the vast majority of people associate Phalian with a more Northern European Nordid phenotype than they do in the case of the Keltic Nordic, such a morphology and intermediate pigmentation is sporadically found in Central Europe and it become more and more frequent as one reach Ireland in northwest. One can also deduce from Fleure's writings that Anglo-Saxons did not completely replace the English of the plain. Although the Germanic form of Nordid, the robust Anglo-Saxon of Coon did penetrate far into central England, the older, Keltic Nordic form is perhaps as common. Anthropologists like Lundman criticised Coon's terminology where he mixed up ancient and modern people. I do think that his Keltic Nordic exist. Maybe just the name is a misnomer.
In the end it is we people who define Nordid from a set of convergent set of features that are common in Northern Europe. The type did of course immigrate to the north. There are varieties of Nordid and one could argue how much related they are. What is sure is that within families in Northern Europe one can find both endomorphic and ectomorphic individuals, although my impression is that the latter predominate in Sweden. Biological relations are related to, but are more than just phenotypical similarity. Germany is, and especially some Austrians are, more endomorphic. Is the reason behind such a difference strictly racial? Is the reason behind it neoteny and the widely known brachycephalisation of Central Europe in the Middle Ages? Cannot nutrition influence the formation of types?
Last edited by Glenlivet; Friday, June 25th, 2004 at 12:46 AM.
Re: Nordish and Nordic
The word 'nordish' is a non-scientific word that you won't find in any dictionary coined by an idiotic american and is supposed to refer to anything northern european.
Dr. Joseph Deniker coined 'nordic' and was the first to use it in a racial sense and this is what he meant by it.
the characters do not make the genus, but the genus gives the characters -- Linnaeus
„Friend of Germanics”
Re: Nordish and Nordic
What?! Falish and Brunn aren't the same, or close! I compared the individuals in the pictures and the Falish women are ugly but the Brunn women are HOT! The thing with the men...I'd rather look like Colm Meaney or Liam Neeson over Arnold Schwarzenegger or Matt Damon any day!Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
You should read up on the mythological progenitors of the Norse pantheon in the Vanir type. The Vanir represents Venus the mother of those in West Sweden on the Vanern/Vanaheim. Freyr is like Freir if you spelled it as Vanir would be(Is there any surprise that a name such as Vanya exists?). Fred/Frida is another name for Freyr/Freya, and Aphrodite is the synonym. They are the Vanern Brunn and Frisian Brunn. The Irish Fomo-raig(Fomorian kingdom) is Vana-rike. They are the Brunn in Ireland(Connacht), which accounts for the thinning out of the Vanir in Scandinavian mythology and the presence in Ireland. Ing, the progenitor of the Angels in Angeln->Anglo type. Njoerd/Nerthus, the progenitor of the Norse/Swedes(Navy/Sea people) in Noatun(Norge/Sverige)->Troender type.
This would account for the mythos story of how the Vanir were blended into the Aesir, which are represented by the Hallstatt, the Geats/Goths of Gotaland and Gotland. Odin's people. Be reminded that the name "god" is Germanic.
The Jotun/Giants are the Borreby, with Donar/Thor being the progenitor of the Falish Danes and Thuringers. The Danes invaded Jutland from the south of Gotaland, just as Thorburn defeated the Jotun.
Okay, perhaps what you think of Falish in Britain must be the Danish vikings and Borreby for the Jutes in Kent and the Isle of Wight/Hampshire. I don't know of any Goths or Geats migrating to Britain or Ireland though.
Perhaps Aegir is the name source for Aesir?
Last edited by Rodskarl Dubhgall; Thursday, June 24th, 2004 at 08:32 AM.
Re: Nordish and Nordic
I do see a slight difference. They are probably metrically close and both have stronger rufosity than many other types in Northern or Central Europe. I find some Phalian women aesthetically pleasing. Southeastern English blondes look more Phalian than Brünn to me. It is mainly that they are not as orthognathous than the Brünn type.
Liam Neeson's nose is something else than Brünn. He approach a Keltic Nordic condition. Pictures of Neeson:
http://www.fantafilm.it/attori/NEESON.JPG
http://www.enzogiobbe.com/celebs/Liam_Neeson6a.jpg
Colm Meaney is definitely Brünn.
Connaught is supposed to be quite Old Mediterranid.
Sveatyp is the same as Trönder. That is a correct connection.
What I think of Phalian is not for all of Britain, but mainly in parts of SE England. That is pretty much clear. Take a trip to Denmark and then to some eastern parts of England and you shall see that they are many times indistinguishable. Dutch, Danish, NW German and to a lesser extent English people are quite similar. England got more Mediterranid from Lancashire down to Cornwall, but instead the Nordids are remarkably distinct. The English are also on average longer headed than Danes and NW Germans. It depends from case to case whether it is from a Nordid source or not.
I am surprised that the Flemish have some very blonde individuals. I will attach a few pictures of Olivier Deschacht who got a similar colouring as Carsten Ramelow.
I do not know if the the Göta type in England is from Jutes, Saxons or Angles. They were anthropologically speaking very similar. The Norse are a bit different from the Danes who are closer to the Northern Dutch and Schleswig-Holsteiners.
Maybe not a direct migration of Göta people to Britain but the Anglo-Saxons and Danes brought the type with them. Part of Denmark and even NW German is an extension of the SW Scandinavian folk stock where the Göta type predominates. I have seen many more Danes who are Göta type than in Uppland. As you may know Skĺne (Scania) was Danish for over 400 years. Also some other parts of like Blekinge and Halland in Southern Sweden used to be Danish territory. It was annexed by Sweden after the peace treaty of Roskilde. It was politically independent for over 20 years until it was fully incorporated with Sweden. The Southern Swedes are perhaps closer to continental Germanics. They strike me as more culturally Germanic. Their mentality is a bit different and the more north you go in Sweden you will find less of a Germanic distinctiveness. The people of north just vote for Vänsterpartiet (The Leftist Party). What differentiate Sweden from the rest of Scandinavia (at least Denmark) is Svealand, not Götaland.
Last edited by Glenlivet; Thursday, June 24th, 2004 at 08:57 AM.
„Friend of Germanics”
Re: Nordish and Nordic
Yes, relative closeness in morphology is due to the locales. Falish women at the SNPA weren't pleasing, but the Borreby women at the SNPA were quite sexy. Southeastern English blondes have great influence from Kent, the only Jutish kingdom in Britain(they held land in Hampshire though), which I believe to be Borreby.
I noticed that about Neeson. He seems too lanky to be just Brunn. He seems a blend of Brunn/Keltic.
I read that the Fomorians were a sea people with a home and sea empire in Scandinavia and Ireland, or so the story goes. It is said that they were given Connacht. I take the SNPA map of the Brunn in Ireland to be the area where the Fomorians are.
The Gotatyp must be the subversion of power in Sweden, perhaps they ruled over the Swedes even as Sweden retains the Svea name. England the country was named after the English while they were ruled by Saxons. This is why the "Swedes"(Goths) invaded, imperialised the Baltic rather than was considered "Western". Why also the "English"(Saxons-especially noted by the Welsh as Saxons rather than English) hated the French, who had converted them forcibly to Christianity.
Just remind yourself that the Danes colonised southeast England. It was the Sveatyp and Nortyp? who took York and made it a kingdom.
The rest that you say is spot on, in my opinion, I have always viewed Geats with some sort of suspicion that they should be considered Scandinavian rather than Germanic. I do however, consider Angles and Frisians Scandinavian, like the Norse and Swedes. The languages seem to reflect that. This must make Franks, Saxons, Teutons, Goths, Langobards, Allemans, etc. all Germanic. There is a big difference in morphology and culture, aside from the historical differences. They certainly have different legacies. This is like comparing the Irish/British Celts with the Gallic Celts. The Gauls and Germans share something while the British Isles and Scandinavians share another.
„Friend of Germanics”
Re: Nordish and Nordic
I noticed in the stories that they said the Fomorians were ugly. I cannot but guess this is the Paddy/Brunn Irish that the English(Saxons) make fun of, as they weren't Keltic enough for the Kelts who migrated to Ireland.
Since I have tracked my paternal migrations, it seems they left Uppsala[Yngling], to Jorvik(York)[England], then recently moved to Boston[New England]. They preferred places that have a high power base, and places inhabited by those bearing the tribal name "Ing". I cannot help assuming they worshiped Ing as their ancestor at Uppsala's temple. Freyr's(Ing) sacred animal was the boar, and Jor is an old Norse name for boar.
I am guessing that the reason why New England rebelled was the fact they were a blend of viking English from the East Anglia/Danelaw/York areas, while the Virginia/Confederate people were from Wessex. This would mean that the Saxons of Wessex liked the Hanoverian kings while the Anglian people were tied to their heathen roots and defied the religious conventions imposed upon them. It likewise makes sense that the Saxon Southerners held an affinity for lavish money and more continental European attitudes/values, liking the slavery for their benefit. Frisian people value their freedom though.
This is very intriguing! I am glad to have the insights after so little time studying the anthropology under the guidelines set. History and cultural studies do help immensely!
Last edited by Rodskarl Dubhgall; Thursday, June 24th, 2004 at 09:37 AM.
Re: Nordish and Nordic
@Volksdeutscher
I am continually surprised how Gota types presented by you are close to Slavic continental Nordic type. For sure this type is much more popular among Slavs than NW (littoral) type.
Hasn’t Lundman mentioned that Gota is more mesocephalic comparing with dolichocephalic darker Dalarne Swedes
Re: Nordish and Nordic
What do you mean by NW (Littoral) type? If they are similar to certain Slavs then that is probably an imagination. I used Jonathan Stead as Göta type but Christian Olsson because I was writing about leptoprosopic Nordids. Olsson is closer to Trönder, whom are in turn closer to the Nordid type found among Slavs. Lundman put Trönder in an eastern tree branch. Slavic Nordids are usually high skulled while Göta is distinctly low skulled. I have never heard of Göta type among Slavs. Maybe some Slavs have a component which later produced the Göta type.
The men that you showed us in the previous post seem to have a wider minimum frontal, bizygomatic and bigonial. I could mistake them for a type found in Latvia, but not Norway or even in Uppland.
Swedes from Dalarna are varied. There are different anthropological zones and it would take too much time to go into detail. Göta, Västmanland and Trönder are all found there, also a Tydal influence and minor "tattare" (mixed Roma with Swedes and sometimes other Europeans).
Lundman has not mentioned that Göta type is more mesocephalic. Trönder can be but rarely Göta.
I can see sharp features that some Slavs in Poland possess. Northern Poland is partially Nordid. I'm aware of that and I have seen a few Nordid looking Poles. However, I would not mistake them for Poles but I could by comparing them to some people from the Low Countries and parts of England. This is not said in any way to belittle a Nordid component among the Northern Slavic people. I would appreciate it if you too would show some textbook examples, preferably of Poles labeled as Nordid. I will also try to scan an aistin for you.
Now I shall attach a few textbook representatives of Swedish and Norwegians who are of Göta type. I also think that Swedish football player Christian Wilhelmsson is a Göta type.
Last edited by Glenlivet; Friday, June 25th, 2004 at 12:47 AM.
Re: Nordish and Nordic
Czekanowski used only few pictures of Nordics, This is a plate which I posted earlier.
NW type - Nordic/Cro-Magnon Germanic mix- Falish or Tronder
So what is the typical CI of Gotha type? Any other typical indexes, traits?
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