Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 20 of 20

Thread: Australians to Learn of Their Convict Ancestry As Details of People Sent Down Under 200 Years Ago Are Released

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Erlkönig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Last Online
    Saturday, August 25th, 2012 @ 02:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    West Prussia
    Ancestry
    From the roots of the Mountain.
    Country
    Australia Australia
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Occupation
    Student.
    Posts
    281
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimeRight View Post
    And upon Federation, the heavens opened and the angels sang and all those nasty, useless convicts (as well as their influence) were drowned by the deluge of vastly superior settlers. It's fair to say that the convicts weren't running the show prior to Federation, yet you're going to lay the responsibility for bureaucratic and political ineptitude on them?



    I would think it obvious that using convict labour of a specifically European origin carries benefits. Better temperament, pragmatic, industrious; whites have always been favoured by slavers. And they weren't all mindless beasts of burden. Many were professionals: architects, doctors, mechanical engineers; bearers of Western learning and intellect. Maybe we can't attribute establishment-sanctioned leadership roles to them (social structure, right?), but that doesn't mean their contributions didn't help shape the nation (a process that started long before 1901). How could they not have? If they hadn't been Germanics the country would be worse off.



    Only in the most simplistic view of history. Substitute 'make' with 'define' and you are much closer to the truth.

    I did not imply anything was the fault of convicts, I was simply highlighting the fractured nature of the colonies prior to federation, due to the disorganized way they were initially established. I severely doubt the convicts shipped to Australia were engineers or doctors, the skills they had would have likely been stone masons, carpenters, tailors etc. The point I was trying to make was that it is immaterial that these people were convicts, they simply laid the foundation, it was others who created Australia.

    You are absolutely wrong, people cannot govern themselves, nor can they create an organized an efficient society, History clearly shows that Leaders create nations, no one else, the people allow for the sustainability of the nation.

    Agrippa

    Also, if comparing the English descendents in the USA, Canada, Great Britain itself and Australia, it seems to me that one of the best selections made it to Australia.
    This is because during the Federation of Australia, Parliament initiated the Immigration Restriction Act or "White Australia policy", which cunningly forced all immigrants to take a 50 word dictation test in a European language, the catch was it could be in any European language and if you were thought undesirable you would find yourself having to read something like Magyar.

    While the enforcement became somewhat lax as time progressed, to Asians and southern Europeans, as only Northern Europeans were desired, the act was not officially abolished until 1973. Unfortunate, as I remember my American History Lecturer making a joke, "When I first started teaching here I said to myself, Man Hitler would have loved this place".
    Life is a well of delight; but where the rabble also drink, there all fountains are poisoned.

  2. #12
    New Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Online
    Sunday, July 4th, 2010 @ 11:06 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Australian
    Ancestry
    British Isles
    Country
    Australia Australia
    Gender
    Age
    39
    Posts
    12
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    I did not imply anything was the fault of convicts
    Are you for real? That's exactly what you implied and stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    I severely doubt the convicts shipped to Australia were engineers or doctors
    'Severely', huh? You would be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    The point I was trying to make was that it is immaterial that these people were convicts, they simply laid the foundation, it was others who created Australia.
    Well the point that you DID make is that their race/ethnicity/character was immaterial. They could have been Eskimo's but Australia wouldn't be any different thanks to the handful of British-born politicians who single-handedly expunged any influence they had.

    Try to understand that there is a hell of a lot more to nation building/creation than organising and holding a vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    History clearly shows that Leaders create nations, no one else
    No it doesn't. It's just easier to see it that way. If only Bangladesh had an Edmund Barton...

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Erlkönig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Last Online
    Saturday, August 25th, 2012 @ 02:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    West Prussia
    Ancestry
    From the roots of the Mountain.
    Country
    Australia Australia
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Occupation
    Student.
    Posts
    281
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimeRight View Post
    Are you for real? That's exactly what you implied and stated.



    'Severely', huh? You would be wrong.



    Well the point that you DID make is that their race/ethnicity/character was immaterial. They could have been Eskimo's but Australia wouldn't be any different thanks to the handful of British-born politicians who single-handedly expunged any influence they had.

    Try to understand that there is a hell of a lot more to nation building/creation than organising and holding a vote.



    No it doesn't. It's just easier to see it that way. If only Bangladesh had an Edmund Barton...
    Reading back it seems you have just latched onto a single snide remark I made "I suppose you can thank the convicts for this", perhaps you should focus on the meaning of my arguement, rather than focusing on single sentence fragments.

    Providing instances of 4 people hardly allows you to make the generalization
    Many were professionals: architects, doctors, mechanical engineers; bearers of Western learning and intellect
    Over 80 years more than 165,000 convicts were shipped to Australia, simple logic and demographic understanding deems that those of an academic, skilled background would be in the minority of deportees from England.

    Please show me where I took the discussion out of the Germanic racial spectrum, you are attempting to put words in my mouth. Infact I specifically stated, albeit somewhat jovially, that it could not have been done by any ethnicity. The point I made is that it is unimportant if they are convicts, slaves, settlers, or even native Germanics in Germania, without an efficient and effective leader, the group has no destiny.

    I dont know where you get the nerve to challenge me when I clearly stated how disorganized and poorly structured the colonies were prior to Federation, without attempting to even address it, all you have are vague generalizations, unless you can come up with solid evidence to support your claim that the Convicts sent to Australia were uniquely key in its creation, dont bother replying.
    Life is a well of delight; but where the rabble also drink, there all fountains are poisoned.

  4. #14
    New Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Last Online
    Sunday, July 4th, 2010 @ 11:06 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Australian
    Ancestry
    British Isles
    Country
    Australia Australia
    Gender
    Age
    39
    Posts
    12
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    Reading back it seems you have just latched onto a single snide remark I made "I suppose you can thank the convicts for this", perhaps you should focus on the meaning of my arguement, rather than focusing on single sentence fragments.
    Rubbish. You've implied it in other instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    Providing instances of 4 people hardly allows you to make the generalization. Over 80 years more than 165,000 convicts were shipped to Australia, simple logic and demographic understanding deems that those of an academic, skilled background would be in the minority of deportees from England.
    What are you talking about? How is it a generalisation? I made a statement of fact. The point being made is that if they were of a different origin, there wouldn't have been that portion, albeit a minority, who carried those skills. Having those skills was more beneficial to the nation than not having them, therefore this unique aspect was significant. And you noted before that a lot of them would have been craftsmen. Do you not see how that would be important? Would a group of Indonesians been as capable of building the nations infrastructure and then, as free men, going on to practice the trades needed in a western society?

    "Perhaps you should focus on the meaning of my arguement, rather than focusing on single sentence fragments." The first time you said you doubted it, now you say its a generalisation. All you can do is nitpick and avoid the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    Please show me where I took the discussion out of the Germanic racial spectrum,
    When you said that anybody could have done it other than the blacks. Regardless of the joke, you are clearly suggesting that it doesn't matter what race they are. Also, it goes without saying that if your going to suggest that the convicts didn't have a unique influence on the nation, you'd also be saying that their race is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    The point I made is that it is unimportant if they are convicts, slaves, settlers, or even native Germanics in Germania, without an efficient and effective leader, the group has no destiny.
    That was not your point at all. The point that you made that's relevant to this discussion is that the character of the group doesn't matter; only the leaders determine the quality of the nation. Obviously, those different groups are going to provide different qualities. They did opt to use convict labour for a reason (and it wasn't just to empty the prisons)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    I dont know where you get the nerve to challenge me


    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    when I clearly stated how disorganized and poorly structured the colonies were prior to Federation, without attempting to even address it,
    You need to consider the context. The question that's relevant to the discussion is whether there's a continuity and connection between the two time frames and because I'm not hiding from the argument like you, I have addressed it. The fact that Federation was an improvement does not prove your point (as much as you wish it would).

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    all you have are vague generalizations, unless you can come up with solid evidence to support your claim that the Convicts sent to Australia were uniquely key in its creation, dont bother replying.
    The first post you made in this thread, you dismissed Sigurd's points with a condescending remark and then didn't even bother to qualify it with a reasonable explanation. Others have come into the thread and contributed thoughtful posts with good reasoning that counters your argument, but you refuse to touch them in any substantive way. The onus has been well and truly on you to back up your position, but the best you can do is avoid the key points, try to shift the context, repeat idiotic, irrelevant arguments and then back out of them when you're called on it. Vague generalisations? You liar. You can't even be honest in your moronic, cliched criticism.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Erlkönig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Last Online
    Saturday, August 25th, 2012 @ 02:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    West Prussia
    Ancestry
    From the roots of the Mountain.
    Country
    Australia Australia
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Occupation
    Student.
    Posts
    281
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    I cant be bothered continuing with you, I am not interested in opinions I am interested in what can be substanitated historically. It is not my problem if you wish to delude yourself.




    Here is more information on the "White Australia policy", sorry about the delay.








    A pdf transcript.
    http://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/resou..._doc_1901a.pdf

    The Dictation Test was administered 805 times in 1902-03 with 46 people passing and 554 times in 1904-09 with only six people successful. After 1909 no person passed the Dictation Test and people who failed were refused entry or deported.

    Regional Histories of NSW,
    Heritage Office & Dept of Urban Affairs & Planning,
    Sydney, 1996.


    A badge from 1906.


    "It is necessary that we should determine what are the ideals towards which every Australian would desire to strive. I think those ideals might well be stated as being to secure our national safety, and to ensure the maintenance of our white Australia policy to continue as an integral portion of the British Empire, and to play our full part us a great self governing Dominion;

    We are for the Empire; for an adequate measure of defence; for the maintenance and protection of a white Australia." - Prime Minister Stanley Bruce

    source, http://web.archive.org/web/200802270...eech_NAT_T.pdf

    An article on ancestry from the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....2!OpenDocument
    Life is a well of delight; but where the rabble also drink, there all fountains are poisoned.

  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Erlkönig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Last Online
    Saturday, August 25th, 2012 @ 02:49 PM
    Ethnicity
    West Prussia
    Ancestry
    From the roots of the Mountain.
    Country
    Australia Australia
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Occupation
    Student.
    Posts
    281
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    On May 28, 1902, the Secretary of the Department of External Affairs, Atlee Hunt, wrote the following to the Prime Minister, Edmund Barton:
    "… We continue to eject the monstrous Jap and the wily Chow with persistence. The I.R Act has not exhausted its possibilities yet. I have four matters now with the A-G for opinion. The April returns show that no coloured aliens passed the test, over 40 were rejected, mostly chows who tried to enter Queensland on false papers."
    Barton Papers, National Library of Australia, MS 51/1/976

    "The English Language will in general be adopted for the purpose of the test; but if in your opinion, the immigrant would, for reasons which you would be prepared to state, be an undesirable immigrant, it may be better to substitute for the English test, a passage from some other language. The choice of the language and of the passage will be left to your discretion. In every such case, a special report is to be furnished."
    Roland Norris, 'The Emergent Commonwealth (Studies in Australian Federation Series), Melbourne University Press, 1975. p 91-92 & p 23

    "A German subject … was released last week from Maitland prison and by commonwealth authorities in Newcastle submitted to a test in the Greek language although he speaks German, English and French. As he could not pass the test, he was sentenced in Newcastle to six months imprisonment for being a prohibited immigrant…"
    Telegram from Paul Von Bari (German Consul General) to Governor- General (Hopetoun), December 8, 1903, Australian Archives A6662/1 200

    Life is a well of delight; but where the rabble also drink, there all fountains are poisoned.

  7. #17
    Senior Member
    arcticdoctor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Online
    Thursday, May 31st, 2018 @ 02:05 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    england,france,norway,germany
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Alaska Alaska
    Gender
    Family
    Grandparent
    Occupation
    Medical Doctor
    Politics
    National Socialism
    Religion
    The Old Religion
    Posts
    240
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Lordy, lordy, dem Elitists doan need us por ol white trash no mor! Des can get by jess fin wit out usen!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfablot View Post
    The fact that Inglis Clark studied Mechanical Engineering and Law makes this claim very dubious considering the social structure of the time. I was speaking of iconic historical figures who were directly responsible for creating the nation, not "iconic Australians".

    Australia before Federation was a shambles and a joke, there was no military, tariffs were charged when taking goods through colony borders, there were different rail gauges between the colonies making travel extremely burdensome, there was open animosity between colonies making trade very difficult. I suppose you can thank the convicts for this. While they did do a job, the job could have been done by anyone (except a black man). It is leaders who make a nation.
    I'm sick of this "elitist" BS. Real "leaders" come from the people.
    "Leaders" who haven't forgotten their "common" roots.

    You can take all of our current crop of "leaders" out and hang them from the nearest lamp post and us "common" people will do just fine.

    You get rid of all us "common" people who are "just doing a job anyone
    can do" and all you elitist b*****ds would promptly starve to death.

    I have had the dubious "privilege" of hanging out with plenty of
    "leaders" , and they are basically dumber than well ropes when it comes
    to anything practical. So you can choke on your silver spoon and die,
    or more likely, just starve to death from congenital stupidity.
    Illegitimi non Carborundum ! Coitus non Circum !
    Ex Gladio Libertas ! Μολών λαβέ !
    Si vis pacem, Para bellum !
    'All Political Power Grows out of the Barrel of a Gun' Chairman Mao

  8. #18
    United Empire
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member


    Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    British & Irish
    Ancestry
    England & Scotland, Ireland
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Y-DNA
    R-BY30613
    mtDNA
    K2a5a1
    Country
    Dominion of Canada Dominion of Canada
    State
    Rhode Island Rhode Island
    Location
    Kentucky
    Gender
    Age
    38
    Zodiac Sign
    Leo
    Family
    Married parent
    Occupation
    Black-Smiter
    Politics
    Monarchist
    Religion
    ᚢᚦᛁᚾ
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    7,627
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    397
    Thanked in
    344 Posts
    When I think about Aussies, my impression is one of would-be Americans. All those transports bound to Botany Bay were originally destined for Savannah. There was a big interruption between 1776-83 that ruined the prospects of this peopling of the New World that lingered through to 1814 and it wasn't until 1818 when the Pacific coast between Alaska and California was officially jointly administered by London and Washington peacefully--until the election of Polk, of course. I don't feel the same way about Canada and New Zealand that I do about Oz, because of the struggles faced by our other two sets of colonies, pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. Long live Australia! <3

  9. #19
    Active Funding Member
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    KYAnglo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Last Online
    5 Hours Ago @ 12:29 AM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    England/Britain
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Y-DNA
    R-U106>L48
    mtDNA
    H3af
    Country
    Confederate States Confederate States
    State
    Kentucky Kentucky
    Gender
    Family
    Single parent
    Politics
    Confederate
    Religion
    Folkish Heathen
    Posts
    868
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    294
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    371
    Thanked in
    240 Posts
    One of my paternal ancestors from Essex was presumably among the last generations of convicts to be transported to the American colonies, to Virginia in his case. He and two of his brothers were sentenced to transportation for apparently stealing clothes in their home area of Langdon (sic?) Hill, Essex in 1754. I've actually looked up their digitized court records on an Essex website.
    He apparently couldn't stay out of trouble indefinitely in Virginia, getting in hot water for being a suspected Loyalist during the Revolution. He eventually covered his arse I suppose by swearing an oath of allegiance to the new state of Virginia.
    "Almost every name belongs to well-known families of English stock....these soldiers were of ancient American lineage"- Prof. N.S. Shaler on the 1st Kentucky "Orphan" Brigade, Confederate States Army

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to KYAnglo For This Useful Post:


  11. #20
    Senior Member
    Winterland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Last Online
    3 Days Ago @ 05:40 AM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    German; Scot-Irish; Scandinavian
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    Coastal region
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Free Lance
    Politics
    Conservative
    Religion
    Christian
    Posts
    362
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    309
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    222
    Thanked in
    160 Posts
    Earlier British and European land owners also had problems with poaching on private lands both owned by aristocracy and by the Church. If you could not find regular work or owned lands, you or your family may literally starve or be homeless. I read the Church owned up to 45% of the lands in Central Europe at one time. Citizens were expected to work for food and shelter. Today, certain people can choose NOT to work poorer paying jobs for 2-3 generations now. We have a built in voting and protesting class currently to appease the Democrats mainly. Similar to Australia, in Georgia, we also had British colonial prison farms.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Western European Sleep Patterns 500-200 Years Ago
    By Adalheid Friunt in forum Cultural & Linguistic Anthropology
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 4 Weeks Ago, 07:02 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: Friday, July 21st, 2017, 06:55 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Monday, August 14th, 2006, 07:06 PM
  4. Major Climate Change Occurred 5,200 Years Ago: History Could Repeat Itself
    By The Blond Beast in forum Natural Sciences & Environment
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Friday, December 17th, 2004, 05:50 AM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 06:52 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •