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Thread: Are All East Baltids Mixed with Lapps?

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    Are All East Baltids Mixed with Lapps?

    I'm still learning about different racial types and had a discussion with someone about this.

    If you're East Baltic, does that mean you have to be mixed with Lapp (however far back) or some sort of Mongoloid influence? I thought that was the basis of the subrace. That they were Nordids/Cromagnids who still showed signs of mixing with those people.

    Or can East Baltids be totally unmixed with these groups?

    Thank you.

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    Saami have a mix that is similar to Finns, and Finns are genetically much closer to Europe than Mongols. They are different tribes (groups).
    Some people say the Saami have some Iberian DNA, and point to the Finn migration as coming from the Ural mountains.

    Nordic (Old Germanic) traits that radiate outward from Sweden are also present to a lesser degree in the north (Finland).
    Slavic traits are more prominent to the south towards Lithuania.

    This link shows genetic levels of European Y-chromosome DNA with a description for various types.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml


    This link describes East Baltics as short and wide, with heavy bone structures. I think they are describing Balto-Slavs.
    http://www.white-history.com/earlson...eoehchap2e.htm

    The term East Baltic race was coined by the anthropologist Rolf Nordenstreng, but was popularised by the race theorist Hans F. K. Günther. It was characterised as "short, short-headed, broad-faced, with heavy, massive under-jaw, chin not prominent, flat, rather broad, short nose with low bridge; stiff, light (ash-blond) hair; light (grey or whitish blue) eyes, standing out; light skin with a grey undertone."[citation needed] In Günther's work the term formed part of a hierarchical "Nordicist" racial model, of which Günther was a principal exponent. Madison Grant theorised that the East Baltic race was a blend of Nordics and Alpines.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Baltic_race

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

    I don't have time to read this one, but only give the conclusion.
    The closeness of the Finnish Ugric, Slav and Germanic
    populations according to anthropological and genetical
    data
    F. Nazarova
    Thus, based on the anthropogenetic data we suppose
    that the Caucasoids today-the Slavs, Finns and
    Germanic populations are from the same ancestral
    population inhabiting a region of Southern Siberia in the
    middle of the Paleolithic as that of northern Mongoloids
    and American Indians.
    http://www.academicjournals.org/JEBR...c/Nazarova.pdf

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    East Baltids can, according to Bertil Lundman, be divided into western and eastern subtypes (Tavastid and Savolaxid). Lundman wrote that Tavastids were taller, more brachycephalic and had horizontal eyefolds, while Savolaxids were shorter, less brachycephalic and had somewhat slanted eyefolds. I never saw him mention anything about Savolaxids being "non-European".

    Both Lundman and Herman Lundborg posted this Savolaxid East Baltid as one of their examples, without mentioning anything about Asian/Lappoid admixture.

    Translated from Lundman's book "Jordens människoraser och folkstammar", originally written in Swedish:

    Northern Europe is seen from an anthropological view a unity, although you might argue, if you racially here should count eastern Finland and the coastal areas of the southeast Baltics who forms transitional areas. Also the aforementioned west coast of Norway and to some extent the Danish islands (at least Fyen), are pretty deviating (the racial stocks of the Lapps are something totally separate).
    Having Sweden in the center, the Nordic peoples (even the Estonians) makes, at least to some extent, a unit from a racial perspective. Most outliers are the Finns, especially the Eastern Finns (only the Lapps can racially never claim to belong to the Nordic stockgroup). We may have most racial kinship with northwestern Germany and the Netherlands (north of Rhine), and some North English and Eastern Scottish groups. The latter are also to a large extent the direct descendants of Danish and even more Norwegian Vikings - or the Germans from the North Sea coast!
    Modern DNA studies shows that Finns (both Western and Eastern) cluster with their neighbours, somewhat distanced though. Eastern Finns are closer to North Russians (isn't seen in this study though), while Western Finns are closer to Eastern Swedes (svear). This study also shows the amount of "Asianess" into the Northern European populations.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0003519

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0003519.s002

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0003519.s006

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    What is between difference West balts, East Balts, Balts ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar View Post
    What is between difference West balts, East Balts, Balts ?
    Using Agrippa taxonomy:

    West Baltid is robust, tall and meso/dolicocephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern Dalofaelid".

    Baltid is shorter, pyknomorphic (tendency for being overweight) and brachycephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern" Borreby.

    (This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

    East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

    (Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    Using Agrippa taxonomy:

    West Baltid is robust, tall and meso/dolicocephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern Dalofaelid".

    Baltid is shorter, pyknomorphic (tendency for being overweight) and brachycephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern" Borreby.

    (This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

    East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

    (Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)
    Interesting.

    What about Alpine ? do they have a little of asian ?

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    I'm confused by the answers. Could someone answer in a Yes-or-No fashion as to whether East Baltic generally have Mongoloid admixtures?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    (This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

    East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

    (Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)
    Does that mean that East Baltid's generally have Lapp/Saami genetics? Or just facial features similar to lapps ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjolner View Post
    I'm confused by the answers. Could someone answer in a Yes-or-No fashion as to whether East Baltic generally have Mongoloid admixtures?



    Does that mean that East Baltid's generally have Lapp/Saami genetics? Or just facial features similar to lapps ?
    I dont think East Baltid have lapp/saami genetic but they have facial feature that look similiar and have distant mongol genetic because of their cheekbone and eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    Using Agrippa taxonomy:

    West Baltid is robust, tall and meso/dolicocephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern Dalofaelid".

    Baltid is shorter, pyknomorphic (tendency for being overweight) and brachycephalic. You could say that it's an "eastern" Borreby.

    (This is Lundman's Tavastid type.)

    East Baltid is a Baltid with "Lappoid" facial features.

    (Basically Lundman's Savolaxid.)
    Actually I consider Westbaltid being brachycephalised too, the others are just Cromagnid.

    One can say that like Nordisation, Dinarisation, Alpinisation - Baltisation (results in Osteuropids) is a trend, a fairly young one in comparison which can be individually and population wise stronger or weaker.

    Basically it goes from a robust-coarse Cromagnid type in the East, towards brachycephalisation and slight reduction (Westbaltid), more reduction, shorter proportions, more infantilised and less masculine (Baltid) - and ending up in the North East with Mongoliform traits, strong Borealisation of Mongoliform or Mongoloid character (short extremities, sparse beard and body hair, flatter face, concave snubnose etc.)

    If comparing with "classic Europid traits", those decrease from Westbaltid to Baltid to Eastbaltid - Eastbaltid being the Mongoloid influenced or at least Mongoliform "transitional type".

    I assume that it has, or the core group had, "Uralic"-Mongoloid admixture. This is also evident in the Finns, Samis and North Eastern Europe in general, which deviates the strongest from the rest of Europe.

    Also the difference inside of Finland parallels the racial division with the more Nordoid South and more Osteuropid North. The South is closer to the rest of Europe than the North genetically.

    Obviously, its also climate related and you can say, if going from warm-temperate to extreme cold:

    Gracilmediterranid - Atlantomediterranid - Nordid - Dalofaelid - Westbaltid - Baltid - Eastbaltid - Lappid - Westsibirid - Tungo-Sibirid - Eskimid.

    Typically, the warm adapted forms are more leptomorphic, the colder it becomes, the shorter became the extremities and the more latteral build they are, until they change from Europid to a Mongolid standard in proportions.

    Eastbaltid and Lappid (core type, most Samis are mixed nowadays) are transitional forms on the still Europoid side, Westsibirid is the transitional form on the Mongoloid side.

    Either of them are less typical for the respective race and show conflicting tendencies.

    Westbaltid and Baltid proper is part-reduced and Borealised too, also has a certain tendencies (Baltid) for less beard and body hair etc., but is still clearly in the range of purely Europid derivatives.

    Eastbaltids and the Lappid core type are not, they are transitional.

    Today, genetics and race type are often conflicting, because in Finland a purely Nordid phenotype, racial type, can have nevertheless yDNA N and autosomal Mongoloid DNA, whereas many extremely Mongoliform Eastbaltids might carry the "Aryan markers" of R1a1a...

    So we can detect it in populations and if adding 1 + 1, its clear that some kind of foreign element entered Europe - or was present there already, who knows for sure, which deviates strongly from the rest of the Europid spectrum.

    Its not dominant, but its present and noticable, genetically and racially.

    Also compare with this autosomal study:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...05472.g002.jpg

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/05...-nelis-et.html

    The rest of Europe clusters closely together in a geographically reasonable manner, Finland being the outsider with the South being closer to the rest of Europe and - typologically ("surprise, surprise") more classic Europid (Nordid, Cromagnid etc.) too.

    This just proves that yDNA came into Europe not with empty hands so to say...

    Racially Westbaltid and Baltid is in the Europid spectrum without noticeable Mongoliform/Mongoloid tendencies, Eastbaltid and Lappid (core type) are transitional with such tendencies, but still on the Europoid side.
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    I'm still not sure if I understand. Hehe.

    I'm so new to this and all the terms are confusing!

    So basically: East Baltics resemble Lapps/Sami but they aren't actually mixed with them. Is that right?

    Thanks for the replies everyone.

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