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Thread: Non-Africans Have Neanderthal Genes

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar Lodbrok View Post
    I've always really wondered about this sort of thing, and its good to see someone posting some useful and recent research. Its right to compare what happened between the colonists and amerindians with the Cro-Magnon and Neantherthal. It had to have taken the strongest strains of CroMagnon to compete against, fight and push back and absorb the neighboring Neantherthal species.
    Honestly I think that the climate and other Homo sapiens groups were a much greater challenge.

    In my opinion modern humans are already the result of intraspecific competition, even more so the progressive forms.

    Homo sapiens was just the best colonist and the development didnt started in Europe nor stopped it with the end of the Neandertals.

    I think that sapiens was used to fight each other with coordinated attacks of related and allied males mostly. Neandertalers had a much lower population density, moved around in small groups and if they had warfare at all, it might have happened on a pretty primitive stage.

    Now just imagine Homo sapiens coming with double and triple size groups, better equipment for coping with the cold (needle and stitching, atlatl and other longer range weapons, finer tools etc.), animal and human competitors.

    They were just rushing over them and I wouldnt wonder - if thats really the kind of Neandertal admixture suggested by the authors and data in the moment - if it was mostly female transferred, you can imagine how.

    I mean Neandertals were in a warmer environment than sapiens though being physically cold adapted to an extremely one sided degree, because they were culturally not able to use clothing and equipment in a way intelligent enough to allow greater numbers and the colonisation of greater areas.

    The "half adapted" Proto-Europoids moved straight forward in areas Neandertaloids didnt colonise most likely in many ten thousands of years.

    But coming back to what I meant before, even if I think that way about their capabilities, its possible that Homo sapiens was superior but had, lets say 50 new mutations which enhanced their brain, intelligence and behaviour, but the Neandertaler just 10.

    Those poor hybrids which had bad luck, not getting the favourable recombination just disappeared over time, being eliminated in the Afrasians - at least the more progressive ones which were under constant pressure, whereas some more primitive ones, like the Australids, might even carried on unfavourable Neandertaloid traits, because the disadvantage in their less demanding and one sided environment wasn't big enough - or probably even, just thinking about their stick duels and the like, a harder skull was more important than a larger brain...

    That way some of the Afrasians could actually fall below the more progressive Subsaharans level, whereas most were above it after the end of the last Ice Age at least.

    Now after the mixture, those 10 new mutations were introduced in the "Afrasian" genpool and could have spread there, because being advantageous.

    That way, even the mixture with an inferior race can produce a superior race if there is directed selection and the generally inferior race has favourable traits the otherwise superior hasn't.

    The basic problem of race mixture is, to the same extend, the lack of positive selection. Because if that positive selection is at work, only the good traits will survive anyway, no matter with what you copulate with.

    Actually Homo sapiens needed some time to get rid of the Neandertaloids in Europe, it didnt happen from one day to the next...

    what happened between the colonists and amerindians
    This thread deals with the colonisation and biodynamic processes, substitution of populations:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...78&postcount=3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    Given that if you bred a higher one with a lower one the result is in the middle the Neanderthaler must have been really intelligent. So why did he die out?
    Probably because he lacked ethnic solidarity and was soft on integration. That seems to be something else that we picked up from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Probably because he lacked ethnic solidarity and was soft on integration. That seems to be something else that we picked up from them.
    The difference is, going after all we can know about them, they never had a choice.

    To compare the Neandertaler's situation with that of us is like comparing our situation with that of the very primitive Tasmanids.

    We Europeans were 100 years ago the rulers of the world and still are the most potent force of mankind taken together. Even in all our states we largely have the control and the means and power to defend ourselves in every possible way.

    What we lack is a system and political will for defence, nothing else. Its just a memetic degeneracy, a cultural degeneration, partly caused by Capitalist social parasites we best call the Plutocratic Oligarchy, some of them Jews, some not, but all of them dont care for the European people's future but try to breed an easy to control, easy to exploit mass of mixed people like Coudenove-Kalergi recommended it.

    The Neandertaler's on the other hand were more like the helpless Tasmanids and Australids, for which it didnt really make an difference whether tried to defend themselve or not, because the other side was so much superior in comparison.

    They never had a choice, we had and still have, just running out of time.

    You can only compare it with potent Indian tribes and the first English settlers rather, with the first being still much stronger and a united alliance would have swept the European settlers in North America away.

    Probably not for too long, but it was at least possible for that scenario.

    Neandertalers at best could have defended themselves as good as they could, but it would have been IN ANY CASE a rearguard action.

    Thats also something for us, if talking too much about "preservation". Defensive strategies rarely worked out and most of the time were at best just good for postponing the inevitable.

    If you really want to reach a goal, you must share a vision with others, "preservation" is no vision, a new collective-community spirit at large might be though, especially as an alternative to Individualised Liberalcapitalism and the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

    By the way: There are no pure Tasmanids left, only some mixed rests on Tasmania.

    If just a more limited number of Europeans would have come to the island, they would probably too number around the level of Neandertalers in Eurasians now...

    By the time of European contact, the Aboriginal people in Tasmania had nine major ethnic groups. At the time of British settlement in 1803, the indigenous population was estimated at between 5,000 and 10,000 people. Through the introduction of infectious diseases to which they had no immunity, war, and persecution, the population dwindled to 300 by 1833. Almost all of the indigenous population was relocated to Flinders Island by George Augustus Robinson.

    A woman named Truganini (1812–76) is generally recognised as the last full-blooded Tasmanian Aborigine. Strong evidence suggests that the last survivor was another woman, Fanny Cochrane Smith, who was born at Wybalena and died in 1905.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmania
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    Given that if you bred a higher one with a lower one the result is in the middle the Neanderthaler must have been really intelligent. So why did he die out?
    It is a mistake to assume that survival of the fittest always equates to survival of the most intelligent.

    Intelligent, almost regal animals, like the lion and the elephant are becoming extinct, but the cockroach will probably continue to survive for millions of years to come.

    This is why our people need to come up with a better plan than just repeating the past. I don't think our survival plan can be trying to recoup the past, at least not entirely. We need to study what works, and what doesn't, and then act accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Thats also something for us, if talking too much about "preservation". Defensive strategies rarely worked out and most of the time were at best just good for postponing the inevitable.

    If you really want to reach a goal, you must share a vision with others, "preservation" is no vision, a new collective-community spirit at large might be though, especially as an alternative to Individualised Liberalcapitalism and the Plutocratic Oligarchy.
    True. I am a strong advocate for positive goals too. You can only counter a vision with another vision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Probably because he lacked ethnic solidarity and was soft on integration. That seems to be something else that we picked up from them.
    What's that, did you interview some Neanderthals to find out their views on ethnocentricism?

    the research claims *all non africans* have Neanderthal genes, if true that includes (i) east asians (who are highly ethnocentric) and (ii) austraolids (papuans were one of the groups tested) who are more primitive than (any?) other group of modern man.
    and lets not forget europeans themselves were very ethnocentric as a group until about 50 years ago. They conquered entire continents and replaced the populations with their own. That's an unrivalled feat of 'ethnic expansion' in probably all human history.
    So let's not be so fast with the 'neanderthal genes gave us super intelligence!!' and 'neanderthal genes made us multicultural liberals!!' stuff .
    There are already good candidate gene alleles for differences in caucasoid brain development (ASPM) and mongoloid brain development (DAB1) which haven't come from a neanderthal source.

    although it's good to see more people extrapolating that it's proof that 'europeans have something special' due to this news on mainstream(ish) forums and news sites, even if it isn't true it swings opinion a little more in our favour

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renwein View Post
    the research claims *all non africans* have Neanderthal genes, if true that includes (i) east asians (who are highly ethnocentric)
    East Asians (mongoloid) have no neanderthal ancestry and on average Mongoloids are usually the race to have the least Neaderthal genes, even less than your average African. Why do think they call Europeans “nanban”?

    The people who have the most neaderthal ancestry are Germanic Europeans and some Near Easterners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenhygieniker View Post
    East Asians (mongoloid) have no neanderthal ancestry and on average Mongoloids are usually the race to have the least Neaderthal genes, even less than your average African. Why do think they call Europeans “nanban”?

    The people who have the most neaderthal ancestry are Germanic Europeans and some Near Easterners.
    ?
    that's not what this study claims (and it's this study which I was referring to ), which is that Europeans and East Asians (and Papuans) have the same amount of alleged 'Neanderthal' genes, while africans have none.
    I'm not aware of any other genetic studies comparing amounts what are claimed to be Neanderthal genes in europe and asia.
    I don't know what 'nanban' means, I'm afraid

    in fact in this study the highest matching % for these 'neanderthal' genes was found in east asian groups (although also the lowest % - outside of africa - in japanese - so the average is the same as for europeans)

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    The theory of an ancestry within neanderthalensis mixing with sapiens was not really right- of the discussion goes on between the scientists- but it was also shown by the genom in relation to ours that there were too many differents for furtil procreation. It is just verified that their evolution neanderthalensis and non- african sapiens has more in common, than neanderthalensis with african sapiens.

    So eurasiens of course have more in common to each other then to african.
    So africans are really more anciant then eurasians, because their evoltion developed on.

    The two big theories of evolution have to be combinded- the out-of-africa is somehow right, the other of a regional evolution, too.

    And neanderthalensis`evolution has also to be written new, because they were more less in amount, more mobile nomadic than thought before and just all of one family, a very near degree and developed from the heidelbergensis, not directly from erectus than thought before. sapiens and neanderthalensis developed from heidelbergensis, heidelbergensis from antecessor, antecessor and erectus from ergaster.

    And that is just the ancestry we have in common, the ancestor heidelbergensis.

    These genes are his inheritance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenhygieniker View Post
    East Asians (mongoloid) have no neanderthal ancestry and on average Mongoloids are usually the race to have the least Neaderthal genes, even less than your average African. Why do think they call Europeans “nanban”?

    The people who have the most neaderthal ancestry are Germanic Europeans and some Near Easterners.
    You can say that, but you can't prove it. The latest research says otherwise, but the last word is not spoken.

    Its just most likely that the earlist archaic Homo sapiens mixed up in the Near East with the (relatively) more progressive Neandertaloids and so this admixture was spread with "all non-Africans".
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