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Thread: The First Americans?

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    The First Americans?

    The first Americans?

    Skulls of peoples with Australoid morphologies have been found in the Americas, leading to speculation that peoples with phenotypical similarities to modern Australoids may have been the earliest occupants of the continent.[14][15][16] These have been termed by some Pre-Siberian American Aborigines. If this theory is correct, it would mean that some Proto-Australoids continued migrating beyond Southeast Asia along the continental shelf north in East Asia and across the Bering land bridge, reaching the Americas about 52,000 BCE.

    Christy Turner notes that "cranial analyses of some South American crania have suggested that there might have been some early migration of "Australoids."[17] These early Americans left signs of settlement in Brazil which may date back as many as 50,000 years ago. However, Turner argues that cranial morphology suggests "Sinodonty" in all the populations he has studied.

    One of earliest skulls recovered by archaeologists is a specimen scientists have named Lucia.[3] According to archaeologist Walter Neves of the University of São Paulo, detailed measurements of the skull revealed that Lucia "was anything but Mongoloid." Further, when a forensic artist reconstructed Lucia's face, "the result was surprising: 'It had all the features of a Negroid face"....[18]

    Some scientists believe these Australoid first Americans later were displaced relatively recently by peoples with more Mongoloid, or East Asian, characteristics approximately 7,000 to 9,000 years ago. Such scientists argue that a small number of Australoid peoples living in Tierra del Fuego are thought to be the only remaining survivors of these earliest known Americans.

    The pre-European Fuegeans, who lived stone age-style lives until this century, show hybrid skull features which could have resulted from intermarrying between mongoloid and negroid peoples. Their rituals and traditions also bear some resemblance to the ancient rock art in Brazil."....[18]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid_race

    It seems a worthy argument against the recent meztiso protesters that say europeans are illegal immigrants. You can respond with "the so-called native americans wiped out previous inhabitants when they immigrated over the bering land bridge" etc etc.

    Either way it is an interesting topic IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oski View Post
    It seems a worthy argument against the recent meztiso protesters that say europeans are illegal immigrants. You can respond with "the so-called native americans wiped out previous inhabitants when they immigrated over the bering land bridge" etc etc.

    Either way it is an interesting topic IMO.
    The Indian ancestors of the Mestizos had a custom, going back thousands of years, of committing genocide against one another. Few of them ancestorals ties to the lands they were living on in 1492 for more then a few hundred years at most. Even tribes like the Aztecs & Incas built their civilizations on the ruins of tribes who came before them.

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    When Columbus came with the first Europeans to the Caribbean islands, they saw males speaking one tongue and females another, thought that would be "the custom" in the New World".

    But they were wrong. The only reason why they did so was that that a warlike tribe conquered the island, killed all local males, took the females and lived with them as a new tribal group, yet the females still spoke their original dialect.

    Such conquest and expansion stories were always part of the modern human history and the good thing was, that especially in pre-Civilisation times usually the more progressive forms substituted the primitive, infantile and one sided groups.
    More racially progressive human forms, often coming from the biodynamic centres of modern mankind, pushed away those which were biologically and culturally less developed. That was a positive evolutionary process, leading to further human development.

    And of course, war was very important for the higher individual and group selection, even for Altruism, because only altruist groups of males, well organised and sticking together, could stand a chance.

    Bonobos, pygmy chimpanzees live in a protected, isolated part of Africa, where war is less likely, food worse and the females can manipulate the males, especially with excessive use sex. All have sex among them, the old, the young, homosexual, its some sort of relaxation of stress and to avoid conflict.

    But why was this possible? Normal, larger Chimpanzees too have wars, male dominated, patriarchal groups, which kill other apes at times and eat meat, better food in general. Groups of males have to stick together, fight and hunt.

    Thats why some Cultural Marxists said, "humans must become like the Bonobos" - in fact, thats what "Make Love not War" was about.

    Considering our human past, many great people and progressive races expanded into other groups areas:
    Europids eliminated the Neandertals in Europe, expanded into North Africa, deep into India, Mongolids took America, but even more so South East Asia.

    And in all that cases a more progressive form substituted the less evolved.

    In America it was just the same and I wouldnt blame the Indians on anything, but neither the Europeans, because they just took their chance.

    Its very interesting to compare the situation with that of Europe, the Neolithic expansion and Indoeuropeans:

    Actually America is really a nice experiment, also with the introduction of horses and their effect on the people. The Indians were pushed into the "steppes" = prairie, but they also went there, because they had a new way of life, mobile, more warlike etc. The typical Amerindians, like portrayed in many movies, are the adaptation of some Indians to the mounted hunter and warrior way of life after Europeans introduced the horse. Most of those lived quite different before that event.

    So in a way, they repeat the steppe people-horse warrior shift in Eastern Europe some thousand years ago in some generations, but unlike those with less animal husbandry, also because there were so much wild animals around them, they didnt have to do it I guess.

    Whats even more interesting in America, probably more interesting than the Europeans march through the continent, for Europe's past, is how the Amerindians among themselves pushed each other from here to there etc.

    Because there is not just one Indianid racial form, ethnocultural group and history. Today it might look so to some, but in fact they pushed and fought each other over thousands of years and some became exterminated or enslaved by others.

    Usually the more progressive groups, racially and culturally, with techniques which were, beside animal husbandry of the large extend of Europids, since these animals were absent or just not domesticated at the right time for various reasons, pushed in more or less peaceful advances the others aside.

    If comparing the European forests with the Brazilian forests, we can see parallels actually.

    The more progressive Brasilid racial forms expanded over a wide area along the coast and along the rivers, took the open fertile planes and pushed the older groups aside. They usually killed the males, but took the females - similar to the Bantu, similar to some Turkic, similar to what we have to expect from warlike Neolithics, as some findings suggest and what was common among Indoeuropeans.

    If looking at this map of the Tupi-languages, you might see no structure, no order at the first look:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._languages.png

    But now look at the topography of the country:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...razil_topo.jpg

    And landscape:

    http://images.nationmaster.com/image...l_veg_1977.jpg

    The older, more often Lagid racial and more primitive cultural, people, can be largely associated with the Jê languages:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%AA_languages

    Compare their habitat:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._languages.png

    The language might be related to the more dominant and progressive Tupi, Caribs, Arawauk etc., so probably we deal with more layers over an even more ancient people, of which little is left by now. Yet the Jê languages being driven close to extinction, by the Tupi & related as well as European languages alike. They are in Brazil, the lowest-oldest surviving layer.

    You can compare that situation 1:1 to the expansion of Neolithics in Central Europe, Northern Europe and the Baltic-NE-European situation. There in particular, as to this day Nordoid forms are more dominant at the coast, the open plains and Osteuropid in the inland, the former forest areas etc.

    The Tupis/Brazilids/culturally-racially more progressive groups "encircled" the older forms in the inland, drove them out of the areas they wanted.

    The Tupi people were one of the main ethnic groups of Brazilian indigenous people. Scholars believe they first settled in the Amazon rainforest, but 2,900 years ago they started to spread southward and gradually occupied the Atlantic coast.
    The Tupi people inhabited almost all of Brazil's coast when the Portuguese first arrived there. In 1500, their population was estimated at 1 million people, nearly the same population of Portugal at that time. They were divided into dozens of tribes, living in each tribe from 300 to 2,000 people.
    The Tupi often fought against the other tribes of the region or even among themselves, because there was not a unified Tupi identity. Despite the fact that they were a single ethnic group that spoke a common tongue, the Tupi were divided into several tribes which were constantly engaged in war with one another. In these wars the Tupi normally tried to capture their enemies to later kill them in cannibalistic rituals, instead of just killing them in battle.[2]

    Cannibalism was part of their ritual after a war. The warriors captured from other Tupi tribes were eaten as they believed they were absorbing their strength. The practice of cannibalism among the Tupi was known in Europe by Hans Staden, a German soldier and mariner who was captured by the Tupi. Staden was taken three times to be eaten in a cannibal ritual, but the Indians refused to eat him, because he cried and asked for leniency. According to Darcy Ribeiro, the Tupinambá "did not eat cowards". Back to Europe, Staden published a book about his experience among the Brazilian Indians, which was published in 1557.
    The new conquerors played the same game:
    Although the Tupi population was exterminated because of slavery or because of European diseases to which they had no resistance, a large population of maternal Tupi ancestry occupied much of the Brazilian territory, taking the ancient traditions to several points of the country.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupi_people

    What type dominates the future depends on the constant influx of new settlers and the selective conditions. If the newcomers have, probably because of a different culture or selective disadvantage in specific conditiosn, lower birthrates, the original forms will reemerge even if being pushed close to extinction on the longer run.

    If the Europeans would have given these Indians some thousand years more, what could you expect? The old races being extinct? No, but only mixtures live on, mostly with a Tupi-Brazilid father and Lagid mothers. They still pushed the others aside, when Europeans came, they actually still do it! Europeans, the next wave of even more developed settlers, just pushed the Tupis forwards which again pushed the older Indian groups into even more unfavourable areas. From the remains we know, obviously the older Indian groups, the Lagid race, was present on the coast in areas where you dont find them in significant numbers any more - already not when the Europeans came.

    Interestingly they had also the custom of "adopting" some sons of the conquered, making them Tupi-warriors and letting them fight as their own ethnic kin with their related Lagid tribes. Thats the main form of survival for their y-DNA/male line. Without that custom, they would be totally eliminated in the mixed groups and Tupis.

    The very same happened in Europe. The Neolithic people, later especially those which were racially and culturally more progressive, well organised, warlike, patriarchal and more mobile with an effective animal husbandry, went always along the coasts, along the rivers and into the fertile open planes.

    Everywhere the leptodolichomorphic types and more progressive longheaded Cromagnids being associated with this pattern, on the higher planes and mountains the Dinaroids emerged as specialists and most other racial and cultural forms, which were comparatively more primitive and one sided, were pushed aside and lived on in areas of retreat, in dense forests, isolated mountainous regions, or that areas where the former population was so numerous, that even if the newcomeser just mixed with some, they made a significant part of the population.

    The whole scenario took place in a better, warmer climate and under specific, high level competition situation, with higher individual and group selection.

    Later Alpinisation and Baltisation happened as a result of the fact, that the newcomers didnt eliminate the former, more archaic Cromagnoids of their areas and their servants and mixed offspring survived the worsening and more one sided conditions, especially in Medieval Europe at the time of the dependent farmers, hunger, plagues, social suppression, unergonomic work-physical stress etc. better.

    So the whole "re-emergence" of non-Aurignacoid forms is largely the result of this pattern: Conquest-high level selection -> One sided low level selection in later civilisation.

    For that pattern it doesnt really matter whether single racial forms of the leptodolichomorphs, progressive longheaded Cromagnids and Dinarids came from inside or outside of Europe, they just fit into the concept of the human forms needed to do the task at that time.

    If you have to imagine a simple farmer surviving all the hardships of the Medieval Age with maximal offspring, you get an Alpinoid in Central Europe and an Osteuropid in North-Eastern Europe, so much more than about immigration, its from this perspective, about "demands".

    A typical Alpinoid is less likely to be an effective herder-warrior, a Nordid an efficient poor tiller-servant, so Europe bred its "workers" under the respective conditions.

    Everywhere the advance of more progressive cultural and racial forms follows the same pattern, for various reasons: Coast, rivers, open fertile plains, avoid the foreign, unknown and less productive mountains, forests and very hot or very cold areas, in which the older and less competitive forms can retreat into.

    America, South East Asia, Europe, Africa, always the same...

    Also the reemergence took place elsewhere. F.e. in some parts of South Eastern Asia more progressive Sinids conquered the lands, yet among their servants survived large numbers of mixed and pure Palaemongolids, this small tiller and hunger-gatherers survived in an even more infantile form in large numbers among the new civilisations.

    The same Mexico. The Spanish conquered the country, most surviving Mexicans have Spanish fathers, so do the Mestizos and even many self-identified "Indians", yet the racial type of the frugal, indifferent, stoic and enduring Indian farmer survived in large numbers and dominates today the picture of many areas, in which more intermediate or even European forms dominated some decades ago.

    They bred themselves to numbers, which will swallow the European layer on the longer run and the only trait of the Europeans which will survive is in many of the future Mexicans probably just a somewhat finer face and the y-chromosome, yet most other traits of the Europid conquerors being lost.

    The Dinaroids explored the mountains later and with a higher cultural level, they had metallurgy, animal husbandry etc., thats a specialisation to this environment which allows an effective and dominant form to survive in it, that wasnt possible before and the Dinarid in Europe adapted to this niche.

    Already the surviving Bell Beaker groups show that pattern...

    So, whatever the results will be, a drastic expansion of the early Neolithic markers is plausible and concordant with the picture we get from other areas of the world as well as from the prehistoric findings.

    To what extend it happened in the "far-away" areas, after so many times of mixture, is hard to tell. But a 90percent plus survival of indigenous lines is even less likely, if looking at the big picture. The only reason could be, that the local y-DNA had a significant biological advantage. Otherwise its impossible, because the movements were too big, to signficant for being ignored and so low especially in the yDNA in many areas of Western Europe.

    I always asked myself how this could have been possible. The only option would be, that local Mesolithics made up a second centre of expansion, lets say from Northern Spain, from which they spread successfully and dominant the culture they adopted - with their genes.

    So if such a secondary centre existed, of a people which developed the racial and cultural characteristics which were so successful, it might not be visible in the genetic lines at all, because it would be an expansion of R1b at the expense of other R1b in the West largely.

    As for the whole R1b story, we all came from the Near East, all Europids do, the question is just WHEN! And if that WHEN depends solely on the mathematic model to calculate the age and there are many of such models around, I'm still rather sceptical to which scenario I will tend.

    Furthermore my personal opinion is that both R1b and R1a was strongest in Central Asia, an Europid heartland for a long time, from where they expanded in various waves, Mesolithic AND Neolithic, which makes the picture even more complicated. The whole Black Sea region might have adopted the full Neolithic package very early and the Catalhöyük-type of people being surely influential, which would have introduced a very modern European form into the mixture.

    In some European areas you had not just one wave of the new types, ethnicities and cultures, but many, every new wave strengthened the impact of the former, that must be considered, especially if looking at Britain f.e. Its close to impossible that 90+ percent are local survivors in most regions, yet the question is from where the bearers of the new way of life came from, like suggest above...
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    There is a very plausible explanation for who the actual "First Americans" were, and there tends to be a deluge of evidence to support this hypothesis.......yet you will never, ever hear of this because it flies in the face of pre-supposed scientific theory, and genuine ignorant political correctness! The Kurgan race and culture ( of Central Asian origin.....homeland of the Indo European / Aryan peoples and culture) had some very significant and unique attributes....completely original to their indigenious existence, that pre-date the conventional hypothesis of the dawn of civilization......

    http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Kurgans.htm


    and yet.......we find these EXACT same attributes and rituals ALL OVER the East Coast and Mid-West of the United States. While much of the evidence had been removed, destroyed or confiscated during the colonial expansion westward in the 1800's.....one fact is undisputed......that the indigenous American Indians emphatically state that these mounds and monuments were here way before they were, and they explain in great detail of their ancient ancestors battling the "Red Ochre People" for conquest of the land and resources.

    http://www.trismegistos.com/MagicalL...tCrossing.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    When Columbus came with the first Europeans to the Caribbean islands, they saw males speaking one tongue and females another, thought that would be "the custom" in the New World".

    But they were wrong. The only reason why they did so was that that a warlike tribe conquered the island, killed all local males, took the females and lived with them as a new tribal group, yet the females still spoke their original dialect.

    Such conquest and expansion stories were always part of the modern human history and the good thing was, that especially in pre-Civilisation times usually the more progressive forms substituted the primitive, infantile and one sided groups.
    More racially progressive human forms, often coming from the biodynamic centres of modern mankind, pushed away those which were biologically and culturally less developed. That was a positive evolutionary process, leading to further human development.

    And of course, war was very important for the higher individual and group selection, even for Altruism, because only altruist groups of males, well organised and sticking together, could stand a chance.

    Bonobos, pygmy chimpanzees live in a protected, isolated part of Africa, where war is less likely, food worse and the females can manipulate the males, especially with excessive use sex. All have sex among them, the old, the young, homosexual, its some sort of relaxation of stress and to avoid conflict.

    But why was this possible? Normal, larger Chimpanzees too have wars, male dominated, patriarchal groups, which kill other apes at times and eat meat, better food in general. Groups of males have to stick together, fight and hunt.

    Thats why some Cultural Marxists said, "humans must become like the Bonobos" - in fact, thats what "Make Love not War" was about.

    Considering our human past, many great people and progressive races expanded into other groups areas:
    Europids eliminated the Neandertals in Europe, expanded into North Africa, deep into India, Mongolids took America, but even more so South East Asia.

    And in all that cases a more progressive form substituted the less evolved.

    In America it was just the same and I wouldnt blame the Indians on anything, but neither the Europeans, because they just took their chance.

    Its very interesting to compare the situation with that of Europe, the Neolithic expansion and Indoeuropeans:

    Actually America is really a nice experiment, also with the introduction of horses and their effect on the people. The Indians were pushed into the "steppes" = prairie, but they also went there, because they had a new way of life, mobile, more warlike etc. The typical Amerindians, like portrayed in many movies, are the adaptation of some Indians to the mounted hunter and warrior way of life after Europeans introduced the horse. Most of those lived quite different before that event.

    So in a way, they repeat the steppe people-horse warrior shift in Eastern Europe some thousand years ago in some generations, but unlike those with less animal husbandry, also because there were so much wild animals around them, they didnt have to do it I guess.

    Whats even more interesting in America, probably more interesting than the Europeans march through the continent, for Europe's past, is how the Amerindians among themselves pushed each other from here to there etc.

    Because there is not just one Indianid racial form, ethnocultural group and history. Today it might look so to some, but in fact they pushed and fought each other over thousands of years and some became exterminated or enslaved by others.

    Usually the more progressive groups, racially and culturally, with techniques which were, beside animal husbandry of the large extend of Europids, since these animals were absent or just not domesticated at the right time for various reasons, pushed in more or less peaceful advances the others aside.

    If comparing the European forests with the Brazilian forests, we can see parallels actually.

    The more progressive Brasilid racial forms expanded over a wide area along the coast and along the rivers, took the open fertile planes and pushed the older groups aside. They usually killed the males, but took the females - similar to the Bantu, similar to some Turkic, similar to what we have to expect from warlike Neolithics, as some findings suggest and what was common among Indoeuropeans.

    If looking at this map of the Tupi-languages, you might see no structure, no order at the first look:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Tupi_languages.png

    But now look at the topography of the country:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Brazil_topo.jpg

    And landscape:

    http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/americas/brazil_veg_1977.jpg

    The older, more often Lagid racial and more primitive cultural, people, can be largely associated with the Jê languages:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%AA_languages

    Compare their habitat:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Macro-Ge_languages.png

    The language might be related to the more dominant and progressive Tupi, Caribs, Arawauk etc., so probably we deal with more layers over an even more ancient people, of which little is left by now. Yet the Jê languages being driven close to extinction, by the Tupi & related as well as European languages alike. They are in Brazil, the lowest-oldest surviving layer.

    You can compare that situation 1:1 to the expansion of Neolithics in Central Europe, Northern Europe and the Baltic-NE-European situation. There in particular, as to this day Nordoid forms are more dominant at the coast, the open plains and Osteuropid in the inland, the former forest areas etc.

    The Tupis/Brazilids/culturally-racially more progressive groups "encircled" the older forms in the inland, drove them out of the areas they wanted.







    The new conquerors played the same game:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupi_people

    What type dominates the future depends on the constant influx of new settlers and the selective conditions. If the newcomers have, probably because of a different culture or selective disadvantage in specific conditiosn, lower birthrates, the original forms will reemerge even if being pushed close to extinction on the longer run.

    If the Europeans would have given these Indians some thousand years more, what could you expect? The old races being extinct? No, but only mixtures live on, mostly with a Tupi-Brazilid father and Lagid mothers. They still pushed the others aside, when Europeans came, they actually still do it! Europeans, the next wave of even more developed settlers, just pushed the Tupis forwards which again pushed the older Indian groups into even more unfavourable areas. From the remains we know, obviously the older Indian groups, the Lagid race, was present on the coast in areas where you dont find them in significant numbers any more - already not when the Europeans came.

    Interestingly they had also the custom of "adopting" some sons of the conquered, making them Tupi-warriors and letting them fight as their own ethnic kin with their related Lagid tribes. Thats the main form of survival for their y-DNA/male line. Without that custom, they would be totally eliminated in the mixed groups and Tupis.

    The very same happened in Europe. The Neolithic people, later especially those which were racially and culturally more progressive, well organised, warlike, patriarchal and more mobile with an effective animal husbandry, went always along the coasts, along the rivers and into the fertile open planes.

    Everywhere the leptodolichomorphic types and more progressive longheaded Cromagnids being associated with this pattern, on the higher planes and mountains the Dinaroids emerged as specialists and most other racial and cultural forms, which were comparatively more primitive and one sided, were pushed aside and lived on in areas of retreat, in dense forests, isolated mountainous regions, or that areas where the former population was so numerous, that even if the newcomeser just mixed with some, they made a significant part of the population.

    The whole scenario took place in a better, warmer climate and under specific, high level competition situation, with higher individual and group selection.

    Later Alpinisation and Baltisation happened as a result of the fact, that the newcomers didnt eliminate the former, more archaic Cromagnoids of their areas and their servants and mixed offspring survived the worsening and more one sided conditions, especially in Medieval Europe at the time of the dependent farmers, hunger, plagues, social suppression, unergonomic work-physical stress etc. better.

    So the whole "re-emergence" of non-Aurignacoid forms is largely the result of this pattern: Conquest-high level selection -> One sided low level selection in later civilisation.

    For that pattern it doesnt really matter whether single racial forms of the leptodolichomorphs, progressive longheaded Cromagnids and Dinarids came from inside or outside of Europe, they just fit into the concept of the human forms needed to do the task at that time.

    If you have to imagine a simple farmer surviving all the hardships of the Medieval Age with maximal offspring, you get an Alpinoid in Central Europe and an Osteuropid in North-Eastern Europe, so much more than about immigration, its from this perspective, about "demands".

    A typical Alpinoid is less likely to be an effective herder-warrior, a Nordid an efficient poor tiller-servant, so Europe bred its "workers" under the respective conditions.

    Everywhere the advance of more progressive cultural and racial forms follows the same pattern, for various reasons: Coast, rivers, open fertile plains, avoid the foreign, unknown and less productive mountains, forests and very hot or very cold areas, in which the older and less competitive forms can retreat into.

    America, South East Asia, Europe, Africa, always the same...

    Also the reemergence took place elsewhere. F.e. in some parts of South Eastern Asia more progressive Sinids conquered the lands, yet among their servants survived large numbers of mixed and pure Palaemongolids, this small tiller and hunger-gatherers survived in an even more infantile form in large numbers among the new civilisations.

    The same Mexico. The Spanish conquered the country, most surviving Mexicans have Spanish fathers, so do the Mestizos and even many self-identified "Indians", yet the racial type of the frugal, indifferent, stoic and enduring Indian farmer survived in large numbers and dominates today the picture of many areas, in which more intermediate or even European forms dominated some decades ago.

    They bred themselves to numbers, which will swallow the European layer on the longer run and the only trait of the Europeans which will survive is in many of the future Mexicans probably just a somewhat finer face and the y-chromosome, yet most other traits of the Europid conquerors being lost.

    The Dinaroids explored the mountains later and with a higher cultural level, they had metallurgy, animal husbandry etc., thats a specialisation to this environment which allows an effective and dominant form to survive in it, that wasnt possible before and the Dinarid in Europe adapted to this niche.

    Already the surviving Bell Beaker groups show that pattern...

    So, whatever the results will be, a drastic expansion of the early Neolithic markers is plausible and concordant with the picture we get from other areas of the world as well as from the prehistoric findings.

    To what extend it happened in the "far-away" areas, after so many times of mixture, is hard to tell. But a 90percent plus survival of indigenous lines is even less likely, if looking at the big picture. The only reason could be, that the local y-DNA had a significant biological advantage. Otherwise its impossible, because the movements were too big, to signficant for being ignored and so low especially in the yDNA in many areas of Western Europe.

    I always asked myself how this could have been possible. The only option would be, that local Mesolithics made up a second centre of expansion, lets say from Northern Spain, from which they spread successfully and dominant the culture they adopted - with their genes.

    So if such a secondary centre existed, of a people which developed the racial and cultural characteristics which were so successful, it might not be visible in the genetic lines at all, because it would be an expansion of R1b at the expense of other R1b in the West largely.

    As for the whole R1b story, we all came from the Near East, all Europids do, the question is just WHEN! And if that WHEN depends solely on the mathematic model to calculate the age and there are many of such models around, I'm still rather sceptical to which scenario I will tend.

    Furthermore my personal opinion is that both R1b and R1a was strongest in Central Asia, an Europid heartland for a long time, from where they expanded in various waves, Mesolithic AND Neolithic, which makes the picture even more complicated. The whole Black Sea region might have adopted the full Neolithic package very early and the Catalhöyük-type of people being surely influential, which would have introduced a very modern European form into the mixture.

    In some European areas you had not just one wave of the new types, ethnicities and cultures, but many, every new wave strengthened the impact of the former, that must be considered, especially if looking at Britain f.e. Its close to impossible that 90+ percent are local survivors in most regions, yet the question is from where the bearers of the new way of life came from, like suggest above...
    As always very informative post. Especially the progressive and less progressive part and their conflicts. I think there is a psychic reason in progressive people that allows them to take less progressive groups out their life. Very hard to answer question but the brain ability of progressive groups should be better than less evolved groups.

    As for the majority of topics science can't answer the questions. The human race and it's history will remain a mystery in many details. We even don't know what made out of the homo erectus the homo sapiens. Revolution is no answer. The erectus was very animalistic and ape related in comparison to the homo sapiens with it's ability to think abstract, his language and his culture. As science can't describe what caused his better skills than the preforms of hominids before the sapiens it's is better to study the bible and the mesopotamian relicts. Out of somewhere of the universe a stranger civilisation came around 500.000 bc and created a new being. First a better erectus who worked in mines. Then the genes became better and the sapiens got to the world. He was so advantageous and did go against his creators. They had to leave planet earth.

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