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Thread: The Finite Limit of Liberal Politics

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    The Finite Limit of Liberal Politics

    The finite limit of liberal politics



    Just a quick question; what happens when we reach the finite limits of liberal politics. For example, England is full or even over populated [esp as concerns infrastructure, housing etc], so we have to change our politics accordingly. If we don’t we will be making life worse for people who are already here. Yet how can we say something like; I want the right to live anywhere, and not give the same rights to others. The political ethic seams fine given infinite land, resources and infrastructure, but then we come back to the age old reason why people are prejudice to begin with, we live in a finite world!

    How does one resolve this paradox?

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    Tirannis, I happen to think we don't have "the right to live anywhere". I believe you have mentioned this before but my view as a Nationalist (as opposed to a Universalist) is that each race has its own territory, which is more or less designated by nature. For example, Africans belong in Africa.

    If anyone goes to live/work/holiday elsewhere it is on the condition that they don't abuse the privilege by disobeying the rules and customs of that land. However, our liberal countries are far too welcoming to outsiders and accept their way of life, even to the detriment of our own in many cases.

    If we stopped doing this then the problem you raise would simply not exist!

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    Godwinson

    Tirannis, I happen to think we don't have "the right to live anywhere". I believe you have mentioned this before but my view as a Nationalist (as opposed to a Universalist) is that each race has its own territory, which is more or less designated by nature. For example, Africans belong in Africa.
    Whilst I am somewhat liberal, there is more to me than that, I am probably one of few here who wore a WWII german uniform in public [when I was younger]. I don’t think nationalism is diametrically opposed to universalism, to be universal you include all, but that is not the same as making everyone the same! Germans should be proud to be germans, English to be English, Africans to be africans etc.

    If anyone goes to live/work/holiday elsewhere it is on the condition that they don't abuse the privilege by disobeying the rules and customs of that land.
    I wouldn’t want to go by Islamic rules in an Islamic country! I would want to be English and me-ish. Equally so, I don’t like to see muslim women only showing their eyes over here, I think its abusive to our sensibility. Still there are limits; a, to how many people can work and live where they want at any one time, and b, to what degree custons and laws are imposed upon others.

    I am not sure what the solution is, but both the nationalist and liberal ways appear to be wrong, or only partly applicable.

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    If you don't want to obey Islamic rules then don't go to an Islamic country ... it's quite simple!

    They have the right to impose whatever rules they want on outsiders, however stupid or oppressive we may find them. By the same token, we should insist they conform to Western standards when over here and apply our rules with the same vigour.

    I don't see anything particularly complicated about this.

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    If you don't want to obey Islamic rules then don't go to an Islamic country ... it's quite simple!
    What if I worked in oil and had to go there ~ and liked a drink!

    Why on earth would you want to restrict yourself to one country?

    Thought experiment;

    Think of Europe as like america, Poland and Britain would simply be different states of one country [the EU is not so far from that], you wouldn’t object to being able to travel anywhere in your country right? Now think of the world as the same.

    In other words define what’s outside?

    Esp with nations like germany who’s borders have changed throughout history.

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    What if I worked in oil and had to go there ~ and liked a drink!
    Then you would have to decide what's more important to you - doing your job or having a drink?

    Why on earth would you want to restrict yourself to one country?
    Who said anything about just ONE country??

    It sounds to me like you're reserving yourself the right to behave however you want elsewhere but get offended when others do the same in your country. You can't have it both ways! Nowhere on the planet is perfect but you should weigh up all the pros and cons and then decide where, on balance, you feel the most comfortable. If you can't do without alcohol then I strongly suggest you don't go and live in Saudi Arabia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tirannis View Post
    Yet how can we say something like; I want the right to live anywhere, and not give the same rights to others.
    There is an old Norse saying that explains this: Right sits in the end of a spear. That, really, says everything that you need to know.

    Actually, that sort of universalistic thinking that you are implying here is the main reason that we as a race are in trouble. We assume that others are like us, we assume that we have to extend to others all the liberties that we ourselves want to enjoy, and we do not seem to think in ethnocentric terms naturally. This, unfortunately, seems to be a racial trait with us and something that we have to consciously raise above, and raise above it we must if we want to have a future on this planet.

    So it is all very simple. We kick the ****** and ****** out of here because it is in our interest to do so; we take the Lebensraum we need where we can take it (and get away with it long term) because it is in our interest to do so. We do what we have to do to secure the long term survival and prosperity of our progeny, of our race, because it is in our interest to do so. It is no different now than when the Americas or Africa or Australia were conquered.

    So that paradox of yours (which actually is a dilemma) is best solved as all dilemmas (at least as recommended by the rhetorical teachers of Antiquity): by rejecting the underlying logic. All that you really have to decide is if you are pro-Germanic, i.e. if you have ethnic interests, or not and act accordingly.

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    So let me get this straight, you want the right to immigrate to foreign lands and bring your culture and habits there, but keep the gates of your own country closed. But if you immigrate elsewhere it goes without saying that country must have liberal immigration laws to allow you there, and we all know what that means. This question why restrict yourself to one country is exactly what immigrants asked themselves and the reason your country is damaged today.

    You don't like it, yet you want other countries to open their gates to you. Why would they do that? Unless a country is brainwashed and masochist, like European ones became nowadays, it won't do that. Muslims don't allow you to behave like a Westerner in their countries, yet they want rights in yours. You remind me of them and their hypocrisy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    You don't like it, yet you want other countries to open their gates to you. Why would they do that?
    I do not think that you really read what I wrote. If you do that you will notice that I am talking in terms of the conquest of the Americas and Australia; or the German Drang nach Osten if you prefer that.

    And no, most emphatically no, there is nothing hypocritical about expecting each and every group to act in its own self interest.

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    Whilst I recognize that each group will act in its own self-interest, Neophyte, you can still be hypocritical in so doing

    The basic tenets of Bärin's argument are sound in that you shouldn't expect favours or concessions from others that you are not prepared to grant in return. I am a "multiculturalist" (please note the inverted commas!) insofar as I respect other cultures IN THEIR OWN LAND and I firmly believe that everyone should do this.

    Military conquest is an entirely different matter, however, and I don't think this falls within the scope of the original post.

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