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Thread: Hitler As 'Enlightenment Intellectual'

  1. #21
    Senior Member Old Winter's Avatar
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    The Nazi's did not purely want to go back to the Germanic past of Germany but revive a mostly unknown Aryan race, culture and religion that predates the known Germanic culture and religion, and you forget that the National Socialist movement came from occult groups who where involved in the search of Atlantis, Lemura, Hyperborea, Aliens etc etc.

  2. #22
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    There may well have been some minor occult influences in NS. Whether these had a positive or negative effect is an open question, though I'm sure they'll be used to describe Hitler as some kind of nutcase by contemporary authors, who play on the general public's ignorance of the occult in today's materialistic world.

    My point was that how do we know NS was based on “racial occultism”? From what I've read in Mein Kampf, Hitler describes in great detail how, in Vienna, the truth suddenly dawned on him that the Jews controlled the press. He then went on to study this question further, discovering that they also controlled several other key sections of society such as the Social Democratic Party and the Trades Unions. He then says “Austria appeared to me in another light” after this and “for the first time in my life, I bought some anti-semitic pamphlets for a few heller”.

    Now, I appreciate that there were important works out there before and during Hitler's time which may have included what you call “racial occultism”, Dietsch, but he based NS on his own experiences which had little or nothing to do with this. I'm sure that it would have warranted at least a passing mention had it inspired him to even the slightest degree but there is no reference to it whatsoever, and to say that racial occultism formed the basis of National Socialism is a gross exaggeration in my opinion!

    The problem is, if you look for links hard enough and spend sufficient time on this you can usually come up with something. Okay, so Himmler dabbled a bit with the occult but so what? In any group containing a large number of members you can find someone who has unconventional ideas but the extent to which they shape the movement as a whole is usually very limited, as was the case here. I'm very interested in your statement though Dietsch, about occult groups who where involved in the search of Atlantis, Lemura, Hyperborea, Aliens etc etc. and would like to have more info on this, such as the numbers involved and their actual influence (both of which I suspect were minimal).

  3. #23
    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    I guess that "occultism" might come easy to a spiritual person who rejects Christianity together with all the other Jewish crap. I mean, where do you turn when you no longer like to worship a dead kike nailed to a cross but still feel a need to connect to the divine? Trying to reconstruct and recover the faith of your ancestors seems like a natural step.

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    If i give sources you would say...
    Okay Dietsch, but I'm sure you'd agree that the sources and the agenda they represent are important factors to consider. Like I say, I'm always dubious about people writing books half a century after the death of someone and telling us “revelations” that the person himself never even mentioned during his lifetime.

    I have conceded that there might have been some minor occult influences within NS but to say that racial occultism “forms the basis” of the NS movement is wildly inaccurate and Hitlerism is a much broader topic than this peripheral issue that you've apparently decided to focus on.

    I do actually wonder at times where you're coming from Dietsch, TBQH. I admire your contributions to this forum and agree with a lot of your stuff but you appear to dislike NS, Skinheads, Negroes, Arabs, Jews etc.. and I'm still trying to find a group with which you actually identify, outside of this rather nebulous and confusing concept called "Green Nationalism" that few of us have even heard of

  5. #25
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson
    My point was that how do we know NS was based on “racial occultism”? From what I've read in Mein Kampf, Hitler
    Now, maybe it should be noted that Hitler was not the originator of NS. He shaped what the public knows today about (political) NS, but the movement itself, originating in the circles of the Theosophists, The Thule Society and others, is way older.

    National Socialism cannot be purely political. It needs a core around which everything else evolves. And this core was not "the Führer", it was about our people and their culture (culture doesnt sound by accident similar to cult), it is the spiritual concept of Blut und Boden forming a political opinion and action plan to protect this spiritual core. It is your, and it also was Hitler's beliefs, however unformed and reactionary they might have been to his Zeitgeist, that forms your political opinion, not vice versa. And when you ignore Hitler's expediations to Neuschwabenland, his engaging in the myths about the underground people there and so on, you simply ignore too his indeed present occult interests.

    The "racial realism" of the Aryan people, that was supported by Darwin and again, the following studies of people in mainly occult circles about race and our origins, was back then no different from the occult base of this race. It is the same, and only because "occult" today is automatically equated with "freaks" and "irrealists" it doesnt cease to be the same.

    They were slandered from the general public, back then, for questioning the well accepted opinion, and indeed "scientifically acknowledged truth", that man were formed from mud by god in the middle east. This strict splitting between cultic / occult knowledge and wisdom and "hard evidence" is a relatively new thing, and while the middle age christian superstitions certainly did damage, the splitting of perceived reality into two seperated concepts today does no good for our people either. And myths dont need to be oppositions to science, the creation myth of the ancient North is in fact very compatible with current scientific knowledge about the birth and development of the universe. Our task is it to regain the knowledge of our ancestors that is embodied in the myths. Only christianity, and today the jewish-inspired radical left tells you that myths are something for "occult freaks" and tree hugger hippies.

    Maybe the myths, the occult, or the cults of our people hold the key to our reawakening? Obviously, as things stand today, reasonable arguments dont work on our people, instead they pray to the electronic jew (tv) or a fleshly jew or mammon. Obviously, our people lacks faith. Also in their race.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Old Winter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    Okay Dietsch, but I'm sure you'd agree that the sources and the agenda they represent are important factors to consider. Like I say, I'm always dubious about people writing books half a century after the death of someone and telling us “revelations” that the person himself never even mentioned during his lifetime.

    I have conceded that there might have been some minor occult influences within NS but to say that racial occultism “forms the basis” of the NS movement is wildly inaccurate and Hitlerism is a much broader topic than this peripheral issue that you've apparently decided to focus on.

    I do actually wonder at times where you're coming from Dietsch, TBQH. I admire your contributions to this forum and agree with a lot of your stuff but you appear to dislike NS, Skinheads, Negroes, Arabs, Jews etc.. and I'm still trying to find a group with which you actually identify, outside of this rather nebulous and confusing concept called "Green Nationalism" that few of us have even heard of
    Green politics was also a part of National Socialism:

    Blood and Soil: Walther Darre and Hitler's Green Party by Anna Bramwell (1985).

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    Yes, I am not disagreeing with any of that, Velvet, and I think a little more "occultism" might even be healthy in this materialistic age. It all depends on how it's used though and many authors could easily depict someone who is into the occult as being some kind of crackpot

    Dietsch, of course Hitler had some views about the planet on which we live and I think just about every other political movement has thoughts on the matter too. However, once again, you have quoted a book from 1985 (when Green issues were becoming an obsession in Germany - I know because I was there at the time!) by someone who is tying them in with Hitlerism just as a new way of looking at things. I think there must have been a million books written about at the environment back in '85 so this one is just covering it from yet another angle.

    Also, it's the weighting you give to such things and describing yourself as a Green Nationalist leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. I'm just curious, that's all. For example, are you more "Green" than "Nationalist" and how many other Green Nationalist do you know, because I'm sure that if you asked 100 random Greens what they thought of Nationalism, a good 90 of them would dismiss it completely and probably call you a Fascist for good measure!

  8. #28
    The lion's gate Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Our task is it to regain the knowledge of our ancestors that is embodied in the myths. Only christianity, and today the jewish-inspired radical left tells you that myths are something for "occult freaks" and tree hugger hippies.
    It depends very much on the myths, Velvet. Non-christian 'myths' sometimes strengthen the christian interpretation of history, or have no effect upon christian teachings whatsoever - .... if there ever was, let's say, an Atlantis like the Thule society believed in - then that does have no effect upon christian teaching.

    Hitler was also interested, among other things, in getting his hands on the Holy Lance and the Shroud of Turin - for a very good reason - and while the nazis were in Belgium in 40-45 they sought after the stolen panel of the Just Judges by van Eyck, one of the most mystical paintings ever - either because there were clues referring to a' treasure' in the painting, or because of the documents that were rumoured to have been hidden behind the panel.

    It seems to me that Hitler subscribed to the christian idea that all the weapons used against Christ in the last days of his life, grant its owner a special power and political legitimacy.

    I could tell you a long, very interesting story about Otto Skorzeny and his men looking for 'something', a christian object, in the neighborhood of Montségur castle in Occitania in '44, which is factual, and the idea they actually found it too, which is open to debate.

    Bottom line is that I object to claiming Hitler, the man who said his task was to finish what Christ begun, for occultism (only).
    "If we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” ― Douglas Coupland, Shampoo Planet

  9. #29
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech
    It depends very much on the myths, Velvet. Non-christian 'myths' sometimes strengthen the christian interpretation of history, or have no effect upon christian teachings whatsoever - .... if there ever was, let's say, an Atlantis like the Thule society believed in - then that does have no effect upon christian teaching.
    Of course not, because christianity has stolen from about every other myth system available to them back in the day. From Egypt over Kanaa to Mesopotamia, Rome, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism and whatnotall. Christianity is adjustable and interpretable in "accordance" with every belief system out there. Not that it would become something consistent through that.

    And the "historical value" is the successful diffusion of events from maybe 4++ millenia to a 3 years time frame as "Jesu life". Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech
    Bottom line is that I object to claiming Hitler, the man who said his task was to finish what Christ begun, for occultism (only).
    I didnt say that. I just wonder why everyone automatically makes it an either-or question, as if both would exclude each other. They do not. The example you gave are clear proof for that there was back then not much of a difference between the myths attached to an object and rumours about it or the possible power that it could have on the political stage. Where the latter obviously can only come from its mythical value, otherwise it would be only a painting, even if a precious one, or a cup made from mud or whatever. What makes it powerful are the myths behind.

    So even in case Hitler was absolutely not interested in the spiritual / mythical value in connection with the object or his beliefs, or even if he didnt have any "spiritual beliefs" whatsoever, he knew all the stories, all the myths, and picked out what could be of use.

    That he might have had far more spiritual beliefs than one would maybe think, can be seen though indeed in his belief to become the anti-christ, that he made massive efforts to find these objects, and that he considered them necessary to fullfil his task. It would be rather pointless if he wouldnt want to use them, right?

    And that Hitler became himself a mythical figure can be seen in that he is portrait (by Jews) as Satan Himself, the most evil creature on earth, that attempted to wipe off the "chosen people". All this relentless digging for "new" vile traits of him or his evil Nazi-Germany is just the very same repeated what has driven and kept alive christianity in the middle ages, when Satan was everywhere and in everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson
    Yes, I am not disagreeing with any of that, Velvet, and I think a little more "occultism" might even be healthy in this materialistic age. It all depends on how it's used though and many authors could easily depict someone who is into the occult as being some kind of crackpot
    ...and many authors could easily depict someone being into NS as being some kind of crackpot.
    Notice something?

    When you look at the symbols used, the Swastika, or even more so the Black Sun, where do you think these symbols came from? Did Hitler, or in case of the Black Sun Himmler, made them up out of nothing? Of course not, they were used because they are powerful symbols that contain parts of the forgotten myths of our people. Hitler made the SS sign of runes, doubling the victory (Sowilo) rune, he used Eihwaz (Wolfsangel) and so on. All this was well thought through, and they were used for their spiritual value and the power they would have on the people.

    Sure, you can look at all this as purely politically motivated activity and "aesthetic choices", but when you seperate the myths from these things, you will never be able to penetrate the secrets behind, and neither the secrets of why NS worked so well for us Germans. Of course, each single part alone will not give a satisfying explanation, viewed as a system in development though it makes a lot of - also mythical - sense
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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  10. #30
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    Me:

    It all depends on how it's used though and many authors could easily depict someone who is into the occult as being some kind of crackpot
    Velvet:

    ...and many authors could easily depict someone being into NS as being some kind of crackpot. Notice something?
    Yes. That if you're into NS and the occult then you've got no chance!!!

    But seriously, I think the thread has drifted away from Hitlerism and become focussed on the peripheral occult issue, which I've never said didn't exist but is only a small part of the phenomenon that Todesengel's original article referred to. In actual fact, this article was about Hitler as a thinker and what is now known as "Hitlerism" rather than the history of National Socialism, including that which predated him and may/may not have had some occult influences.

    Looking back, any useful debate on Hitlerism was cut short at the end of page 1.

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