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Thread: Was Nazism a Catholic Movement?

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    Was Nazism a Catholic Movement?

    Of late I associate Nazism with Catholic South Germany. Hitler himself was a catholic as were his close inner circle (Goebbels, Himmler.) Hess, Bormann and Speer were Protestant, and survived the war. Northern Germanic Protestants are naturally uncomfortable with many aspects of National Socialism especially the focus away from individual responsibility.

    I think a pro-white movement more North Germanic Protestant in character would be more successful than National Socialism.

    The Catholic dictators of the 20th Century
    Germany's Adolf Hitler
    Belgium's Leon Degrelle
    Croatia's Ante Pavelic
    Bohemia-Moravia's Emil Hacha
    Italy's Benito Mussolini
    Portugal's Antonio Salazar
    Slovakia's Fr. Josef Tiso4
    Spain's Francisco Franco
    Sudetenland's Konrad Henlein
    Vichy-France's Pierre Laval
    Vichy-France's Henry Petain
    The Roman Salute.

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    How devout a Catholic Hitler was is questionable, Fortress. TBH, I think it's more geographical than anything else and if you take places like France, Italy and Spain it would have been amazing had their dictators not been Catholics but I don't think any of them pushed a particularly religious agenda.

    The trouble is that if you separate White Nationalist movements along religious lines you are further dividing what are already quite small groups. I suppose I'd be classed a Protestant by default, having been baptized as one at some point in the past (so I am told) and I've always felt more of an affinity with Protestants than Catholics, but not to the point where I'd exclude them (or any other White religious group) from the Nationalist movement.

    I realise this is not what you're saying though, and YES, in an ideal world I would prefer a Protestant form of Nationalism to a Catholic one, but then again I'd prefer a Pagan movement to both of them. However, we can't afford this luxury and I think the most effective forms of White Nationalism just leave religion out of the equation altogether!

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    I think its not as much about religious belief in either confession, but rather the cultural background, experiences you make within it.

    One could say the spiritual foundation of Catholicism and Ns. is more traditional than Protestantism in some regards, yet this traditionalism made it more difficult for many Catholics to accept the "new approach".

    So I would answer that question like that: Confession wasn't crucial, but if one want to see a trend, its probably that Ns. was made up by people with a Catholic confessional background, probably also with the greatest depth of thought, but was most successful, percentage wise and consequent in the Radical sense in Protestant areas.

    Protestantism is less about questioning and more about following, even if its the other way around according to some sources and in some fields, social discipline is highest in Protestants. Yet their lack of questioning, innovative and intuitive thought is somewhat problematic, inside of that cultural sphere and going beyond certain limits without leaving the relations to the traditions. So probably Ns. was, at least in some regards, exactly what the Protestant European culture IN PARTICULAR needs to function for the greater good. They need a high discipline and clear goals, structures even more than more traditional people to function as a people, culture and biologically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    So I would answer that question like that: Confession wasn't crucial, but if one want to see a trend, its probably that Ns. was made up by people with a Catholic confessional background, probably also with the greatest depth of thought, but was most successful, percentage wise and consequent in the Radical sense in Protestant areas.
    Certainly there is some truth in that, however the idea that it was most successful in Protestant areas has to be taken with a grain of salt, if we take the percentages of the elections which were fought.

    Catholic areas oft had several types of Nationalist-minded or at least rather Conservative-minded parties, in which cases the vote was split between the parties in the wider spectrum, the number of sympathisants is bound to be much higher.

    In Protestant areas, however, the NSDAP was oft the only feasible alternative in the Nationalist-minded spectrum, the Protestant areas were as much centres of power of the Communists and the Socialists. Thus, virtually all the Nationalist-minded vote was concentrated on the NSDAP whilst some not immediately NS but still Nationalist-minded would chose other, more religion-friendly options in the Catholic areas.

    The idea that Catholic areas might have rounded up less votes in the election, but still have been rather sympathetic overall would run in correlation with the over-representation of the Catholic areas in the West and South (Austria had near-enough 25% of the leadership in spite of 10% of the population!) in the leading positions.

    For this to happen, popular support would have had to be at least near-equal if not greater, even if the actual polling outcome was lesser. It's like the famous Deutschlandpakt without which the NPD and the DVU would have "stolen" votes from each other in some states and might have both missed the Landtag by dividing the spectrum between them.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Yes, I can agree with that, its just about facts.

    Yet I would still speculate that radical movements were generally more successful in Protestant areas at that time and that there were probably more consequent elements, which took the ideology like a law, in the Protestant areas. Thats the most typical thing of Protestant modern culture, they are more consequent in what they do, no matter if what they do makes sense or not.

    Sympathisants like you said - but radical followers percentage wise? That they voted for alternative conservative-traditional-national-Christian parties more often just proves my point too I guess.

    Also Ns. was born in the South, grew there first, but managed to become the strongest movement soon in the Protestant countries - but thats something you know and we already talked about.

    Yet I would just add that its probably more about personalities, as a personality and political person like Hitler and some others are for me much harder to imagine to come up in the Protestant North of Germany.

    Catholicism has some good and bad sides, as most other confessions...
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    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Thats the most typical thing of Protestant modern culture, they are more consequent in what they do, no matter if what they do makes sense or not.
    Hmmm, after some thought, I suppose you might be right there in your analysis. It is telling that in this day and age, the Protestant areas are more prone towards pushing the multi-cult agenda to the ridiculous: Protestants are usually more progressive and more industrious by mindset, the combination can arguably be as much a curse as a blessing: Progress can mean forward, but progress can also mean disconnecting from one's roots and jumping head-forward into new things without much forethought.

    The Catholics are more hap-hazard about things, arguably more laid back, but also more traditional and less progressive. Traditional can mean backward, and traditional can mean more tied in with one's roots and watching things before adopting them --- but certainly usually little changes particularly fast, a "What the farmer don't know, he don't eat" type of thing.

    Yet I would just add that its probably more about personalities, as a personality and political person like Hitler and some others are for me much harder to imagine to come up in the Protestant North of Germany.
    Do you reckon that could be linked to the more hierarchic understanding behind Catholicism? After all, if we look at the structure of the Catholic church and the Protestant church, we find that the Protestant church is more of a "communion of equals" whilst the Catholic church is more linear from-the-top?

    As such, perhaps Catholicism is more bound to create "idols", i.e. it is hard to distinct yourself but if you distinct yourself you're basically "untouchable" and this might be easier for the creation of an elite, also a thinking elite, and ultimately bring leadership more easily to those who are apt for it ... and with NS being a most hierarchic principle and all? Or is that a red herring?
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Do you reckon that could be linked to the more hierarchic understanding behind Catholicism? After all, if we look at the structure of the Catholic church and the Protestant church, we find that the Protestant church is more of a "communion of equals" whilst the Catholic church is more linear from-the-top?

    As such, perhaps Catholicism is more bound to create "idols", i.e. it is hard to distinct yourself but if you distinct yourself you're basically "untouchable" and this might be easier for the creation of an elite, also a thinking elite, and ultimately bring leadership more easily to those who are apt for it ... and with NS being a most hierarchic principle and all? Or is that a red herring?
    I think thats part of it, but its also about somewhat irrational motives, about believing in something higher which goes beyond the daily pragmatism, it also means to be rather anti-Capitalist, not in a Marxist, but in a more traditional-community oriented and really Christian sense. It has to do with orders and special rules you live in, not everything being determined by the state and economy, nor even religion in its essense, but the traditional culture and a certain spirit around you.

    Probably I dont find the right words right now, but hopefully you get an idea of some additional aspects of what I meant.

    The modern Protestant countries were more cold-pragmatic in their own way, not more brutal, its not about that, but more "industrial" and "economic" from the start, pretty much more dominated by that. A lot of other things came too short, if its about the way of life, the community, the valuable traditions and the like. Now National Socialism tried to put together Modernism and Traditionalism in the most effective way for the group.

    I'm not saying alway in the right way, nor with the right outcome, but it was the right approach, the only right approach possible for modernity, as the alternative, on the long run, means a cold machine working for the Oligarchy which doesnt look for other values than economic one.

    The Catholic areas were just not as much affected by those modern-Capitalist poison - backward too for the same reason. Yet if someone from such an environment, with a clear rule and value system, comes into this modernistic coldness, he might to come up with a bold idea how to change things into something more effective, by considering more aspects than just economic or patriotic ones.

    The Protestant countries often had an attitude, that they felt so rational, they dont even questioned their stance, as with the function elite today and probably in every time, someone from outside that system of thought, not necessarily another culture, but another position of thought, must question what they do, for that they come to a better conclusion of what their actions are really about. Since unfortunately, like we see it today, many people are not able to really see structural mechanisms and basic rules, even if being highly intelligent and effective working and thinking machines so to say.

    Querdenker are sometimes needed, desperately needed, because all the others just think about how they go down the drain faster and as the most successful individually for a short period of time...
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    The figure of hitler the overlord and the masses of adoring followers would have appeared very pope-ish to the catholic-wary english and americans and that in large parT may explain the allies hostility toward national socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress Germania View Post
    The figure of hitler the overlord and the masses of adoring followers would have appeared very pope-ish to the catholic-wary english and americans and that in large parT may explain the allies hostility toward national socialism.
    I'd say the round the clock anti-Nazi propaganda and the fact the political leadership brought them into a deadly war explains the hostility towards National Socialism the best. Also many of those nations already had a war against Germany and therefore hostile feelings anyway, probably regardless of what ideology Germany would have adopted - with the possible exception of the very same Liberalcapitalist one and the plutocratic rule of course - like it happened after the war...

    And of course, Liberalism and Individualism were further West much more entrenched than in most of Europe.

    Many Germanic protestants had no problem with all with Ns., even on the contrary. Its not that simple.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
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    Possibly, but didn't the Nazis close down Catholic churches are something?

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