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Thread: Alcohol and The Movement: A Two-Edged Sword

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    Alcohol and The Movement: A Two-Edged Sword

    I'm quoting part of Hersir's post from the Activism thread, but starting a thread of its own as I merit it's a topic that merits to be discussed in its own right, and would soon steer off-topic in the respective thread if I posted my point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hersir View Post
    Last year a swedish nationalist organisation organised a dinner after the march, no strong alcohol was allowed and I like that they banned that Too much alcohol in the nationalist movement.
    It's a thin line with the "alcohol" matter. The movement is a bunch of alcoholics and this obviously shouldn't happen. On the other hand, our folk has a strong tradition of brewing and distilling, the occasional social and perhaps ritualised drinking is thousands of years old and letting it die altogether would be as much a loss of tradition, starting being near-alcoholics and then suddenly going straight-edge are the other un-natural extreme. I respect their discipline, but TBH it's just a reactionary response to the frequent over-drinking in the movement. IMO, it's a matter of everything in moderation.

    However, it is clear that there is a problem with those that don't know when it is enough, if I go for a dinner then it is proper to drink one beer with the food, and perhaps another during the socialising, but it's certainly not proper to drink yourself under the table. Usually my choice is to go with a known brand to wash the dinner down, and then enjoy one local beer that I might rarely see, end of it. Certainly no hard alcohol at a dinner, that is clear, anything that goes beyond the customary digestive (which is proper) is of course improper if you're dining.

    I have been at a couple of those "open-end" dinners and let's just say the behaviour of some in an actually reasonably up-market establishment once they'd had that one too many is absolutely disgusting, and I understand why one'd ban it altogether. I must say I also find it disrespectful if people go to a rememberance march and use the bus journey to get completely rat-arsed whilst growling to Landser, but that's another story. ... The point is, what or who is actually at blame? Ban beer and Landser (besides the point that their music is legally speaking already banned ) or perhaps better shun those people who clearly lack reason from your group?

    It's all a two-edged sword ... I don't drink overly much, though I regularly drink weekends, but virtually never so much that it inhibits what I do the next morning. In the past two months I've been severely hungover only once, and that day I still got up in time for a hiking trip with comrades, walking works wonders against a sore head ... and you can certainly take your stickers along for the portion you walk within city boundaries (I forgot to do that said day, but it's been known to be a nice hangover treatment, hint-hint. ) . Then again --- exactly how many people do something worthwhile after a sanguine night out? Exactly, very few.

    So we're playing with fire: With either extreme, we're either risking to lose a millenium-old tradition or risking a bunch of unhealthy drunkards. The aspiresome goal is probably somewhere in between, i.e. the odd beer every odd week or so. But how is this achieved, upbringing, example, other measures? Anyway, discuss.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    You already know my general option about alcohol. But in the "movement" it's even more serious why it should be banned. Whatever you're doing there isn't a game. It requires attention and straight thinking. And others may look at you as an example. So everyone must be sober. Alcohol has no place at political meetings period.

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    It is difficult, we all like a Beer and whiskey now and then, but obviously alcohol has had some terrible side effects on the folk over the years. My dad always says 'the drink never rises anybody up, it always brings people down to the level of a gibbering idiot' It should be called the great leveler, as that what it does. It can turn the most brilliant academic, into the biggest fool in a few hours. It can be that good then!

    I think in England the drink really annoys me as I used to work in a pub and all day you would watch people talking about all the problems in the world, but doing f**k all about it. Just blowing bubbles in their ale, pathetic.

    In essence I think it is more of the motivation behind the drink than the drink itself, as long as it is not used for escapism, then I think it can't do any harm in moderation, but too many people use it to get away from life’s problems.

    I personally don't drink anymore, but I can't see the harm if we enjoy a few jars every now and then. But maybe I am just being idealistic!!!

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    Drinking in moderation is fine, but I agree with Bärin that alcohol has no place at political meetings.

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    Alcohol is to drink just as fat is to food.
    Drink too much alcohol, you spoil your brain, eat to much fat, you spoil your body.

    Everyone eats fat stuff but nobody would expect a speaker barking his mouth full of fries and sausages in a meeting (political or not) using a cheeseburger as a paperweight, but nodoby would cares if he takes a mint sweet to cool his throat between to intervention
    Same thing for alcohol, a glass of water or lightly fermented juice to bring back some moisture beetwen 2 discourse is nomal but the bottle of schnaps should not become the paperweight...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    Alcohol has no place at political meetings period.
    I hold at my point: It depends on what you set out to do and the mode of the meeting. If you're on the road to attend a march, you ideally shouldn't drink until the day's deed is done. At best, you can perhaps drink a local beer for your lunch if it takes place in the late afternoon, your arrival should indeed certainly be sober though, and should remain sober until it's all over, and you should keep your thirst for the dinner afterwards.

    A dinner (a glass of wine or beer is customary) can however contain slightly more, usually one drink for the food, one drink for enjoyment afterwards as you practice table-talk. I refuse to partake in any dinner that dictates I be drinking water: The tradition is a glass of good wine (if in better society) or a glass of good beer (if in a more rustic setting) to accompany and a digestif to round it off, actually if more upmarket I expect an aperitif be served as well. A dinner, whether with neighbours or political, without a glass of wine nor beer, without aperitif nor digestif isn't a dinner, it's an Imbiß.

    A discussion round is frequently held in a pub, as may be a speech. It's actually an old tradition, even an old German tradition. Here it would be ridiculous to forbid the odd beer, the same goes for the barbeque with comrades. The more sanguine it gets there, the more useful it is to seperate the useful comrades from the idiots, as people tend to show their real face after a few pints. Anyway, no political discussion in a pub, no Beer Hall Putsch.

    Finally, celebrational meeting can hold ritual drinking as well. I'm talking about the Nationalist portion of the Burschenschaften and similar Nationalist student bodies, a celebrational meeting without an Umtrunk would be rather like a meeting of the Schützen without a rifle or like Morris Dancing in FUBU baggy-pants --- just not the real thing.

    Certainly, it should at all times be enjoyed in moderation. However, should it be banned simply for the reason that some idiots who are otherwise usually a liability for the movement already can't handle it? Certainly the last time a Germanic country banned alcohol, Italian/Jewish mafia conglomerates made a golden nose from the illegal sale...but that's a different point. Appeal to people's sense, they need a clear mind when doing activism, and if they can't maintain their clear mind because they're too indulgent, shun them until they know how to practice moderation.

    Either way, it's ridiculous that people blame the Alcohol itself for the over-drinking in the movement. The problem's not the beer, the problem's those excessive personalities who would over-indulge in anything that is being put before their nose, whether it's a bowl of cereals or a line of cocaine, they'll always put their self-gratification before the movement ... and that's the chief problem, the amount of indulgent, excessive personalities in the movement, otherwise the movement wouldn't drink more than the rest.

    The solution is to simply no longer invite those people who don't know when to stop (the third time someone goes drunk-and-disorderly on me, I simply don't want him around me any longer, period) --- not to punish those activists who prefer a glass of mineral water for the weekly casual, non-food-containing meeting anyway, and only drink in moderation otherwise.

    The reasonably sane Nationalist should know when he is drinking, why he is drinking and how much he is drinking. Had I been at the abovementioned dinner and my accompanying glass or aperitif/digestif had been forbidden, I would have stood up, announced calmly that I was raised differently than such beggar's dinners, and silently left.

    An ancestor of mine, a staunchly proud German, owned a brewery near Augsburg. If he knew that the successor generations couldn't tell the difference between drinking in moderation at a dinner and acting like the village drunkard, he'd be turning in his grave at the idea that today's Nationalists need to outlaw beer altogether from their meetings to prevent the lion's share from acting like donkeys. But instead of the movement looking into the mirror and seeing what the real problem (i.e. over-indulgence, consumer society attracting people to over-indulge, lack of self-discipline to curtail excessive characters), the idea is to ban the millenium old Germanic tradition of social, ritualised drinking.

    Shame really that it should need such drastic steps for Nationalists to act mature. It says a whole lot more about the state of our movement, and some of the shady types that call themselves part of the movement, than it does about the hard-working men and women in the breweries who produce the beverage, TBH. Talk about treating the symptoms not the causative agents.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Certainly, it should at all times be enjoyed in moderation. However, should it be banned simply for the reason that some idiots who are otherwise usually a liability for the movement already can't handle it?
    and

    Talk about treating the symptoms not the causative agents.
    Yes, Sigurd, this sums up the situation rather well as far as I'm concerned. Basically, the types who get drunk and behave badly are blaming the beer for what they'd have most probably done anyway! I used to spend a lot of time with football hooligans when I was younger (but wasn't one myself, however bizarre that may sound) and they'd got the fights already planned in advance but some of them just needed the beer to give them the "Dutch courage" (with no disrespect to our Dutch members ) to go ahead with it. How effective (or not!) they were at fighting when inebriated is really a moot point because they wouldn't have got that far without drink in the first place. I rarely saw nice characters being transformed into monsters just by alcohol though, regardless of this always being their alibi in court.

    These people comprised a very high percentage of NF supporters, I'm sorry to say, and many were attracted to the movement and called themselves “Nationalists” purely for the possibility of violence that it offered. Now, I'm sure that many of them were patriotic in their own way, however counterproductive, but most of their fighting was done against their compatriots who just happened to come from other towns and it was common to see them beating each other up using high-immigrant areas as their battlefield. How sadly ironic is that? If there's one thing the BNP got right it was distancing itself from those who were more of a danger to each other than anyone outside of their group and widening its net to take in other members of society who were previously scared sh*tless of their fellow Natonalists!!

    And isn't this really the crux of the matter? It isn't so much a question of “too much alcohol” in Nationalist movements as “too few women” IMO. Let's face it, there's always been a heavy gender imbalance within Nationalism and if young, testosterone-charged males are not meeting members of the opposite sex I don't think it's too difficult to guess what their 2nd-favourite pastime is going to be …...

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    As always people are different, some can cope better with alcohol than others, that has physiological as well as psychological reasons.

    Everyone which compared various individuals with each other can prove that, one has this, others that problem and some none serious due to alcohol consumption

    If its about political activities, with alcohol its like it is with other things: Work first, fun later.

    Some can't even stand up to that clear message, which is again a problem, because important things shouldnt be influenced by such a drug like alcohol too much. If alcohol can be an inspiration, if that inspiration is of value, it will survive the drunken state, if not...

    So I'm not really against alcohol consumption in general and see it as a part of our tradition and way of life, yet I'm not that dependent on it and think some people can't controll it for themselves, especially if they learnt it the wrong way in their respective peer groups or have individual traits which make them vulnerable.

    If you want to be sure, you would have ban or limit alcohol consumption, but I think thats part of our freedom, freedom of free choice and we can't and shouldnt "punish" all because some can't cope with it. Yet the current rules and way of acting in and outside the political sphere are, if its about alcohol, rather insufficient.

    Comparing Europeans with Muslims f.e., we can clearly say that a lot of anger and revolutionary spirit being drunken away, as well as moral behaviour, sexual responsibility etc.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Too much alcohol in the nationalist movement or too much idiots in the nationalist movement.

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    I confess that I think beer or wine is at it's best with food, and I lose interest in them after 3 or 4 drinks. I don't quite comprehend protracted serial drinking.

    If the inability to control alcohol intake is a glaring problem it's be time to find political comrades that can control it. The others should be free to combat (or embrace) their vice, but on their own time and outside of the meeting rooms.

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