View Poll Results: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

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  • Yes Christianity did have a Positive Effect on Europe

    27 41.54%
  • Europe would have been better without Christianity's Influence

    11 16.92%
  • Christianity Ruined Europe

    21 32.31%
  • Christianity Strengthend Europe and Without it Europe would still be in the Dark Ages

    6 9.23%
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Thread: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

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    Post All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Was the "Net" Effect of Christianity Positive or would Europe have been a better place without it's Influence.

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Yes Christianity has had a positive impact on Europe. Even the staunchest pagans have to admit this.

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pushkin
    Yes Christianity has had a positive impact on Europe. Even the staunchest pagans have to admit this.
    Well, Could you share with the rest of us why did christianity had a positive impact on Europe?
    Just close your eyes...can you remember
    The generations not so long ago
    I feel the shameless urge that we must restore
    Our former king to his rightful throne
    And with me lords and maidens
    We wait for the chosen son's return

    I come alive
    It's a time for celebration
    Our will to restore
    Make our past become the futre once more

    Still he lives! 2000 years have passed
    And still we're yearning for his return
    We fulfill a wishful prohecy
    And so the chanting begins
    Hail Caesar...Hail Caesar...we render unto you
    What is still yours

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Imo thats a difficult question and just to answer for a particular time and region/group.

    Because for Rome Christianity was destruction, but on the other hand, much of the knowledge and structures wouldnt have survived without Christianity probably.

    In general the effect was negative, but on the other hand we do not know if certain technological and social advances would have been possible without Christianity.
    Its really hard to say, so I didnt vote.

    But one thing is for sure, if things going on in the same way like in the last 60 years, Europeans will die and one major factor for its annihilation is our Christian background and its influence.
    So if nothing happen in the next 20-50 years the Christian background and related ideologies are responsible for our downfall.
    Other question is if we would have ever reached such a level like in the 19th and early 20th century without Christianity.

    The biggest questions would be, would Rome have fallen even without Christianity? Would there be another state constitution afterwards in a modern way without it?
    Would more or less antique knowledge have survived without Christianity?
    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, June 11th, 2004 at 02:00 AM.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    To answer this question, one would presumably have to engage in counterfactual speculation about what sort of condition Europe would be in today, relative to the condition it is actually in. This is very difficult task, however, since we can only engage in wild speculation about what Europe would have been like if it had not become Christian. Christianity has certainly had such an enormous influence on European history that there are far too many variables to take into consideration in any attempt to determine what the present condition of Europe would be if it had not become Christian. Whether it would still be pagan today, or would be Muslim, or something else, is not something we can say with any degree of certainty. (One can even ask whether Islam would ever had been founded if Christianity had not first become established in the Mediterranean basin, since Islam seems to incorporate some Christian tenets or assumptions into its doctrinal foundation - but, that's another speculative issue).

    Even so, I voted 'positive'. Gibbon argued that Christianity played a major role in sapping the vigour of the Roman Empire and contributing to its downfall, but Will Durant (I believe...) countered that the Roman civic culture and religion was already so corrupt, it was only a question of which popular Eastern religion would replace it. (E.g. if not Christianity, it would have been Mithraism, Isis-worship, etc.) Given that is the case, I'm not convinced that Christianity was any worse than the alternatives. Also, it has to be acknowleged that the Christian monasteries (particularly in Ireland) preserved a large amount of the intellectual heritage of the classical Greco-Roman world, without which the recovery of civilization from the Dark Ages would have been difficult, if not impossible.

    At the same time, many destructive things happened thanks to Christian churches (e.g. the witchcraft persecution/Inquisition, religious warfare between Protestant and Catholic groups, etc.). But, presumably, wars would have been fought in Europe regardless of whether it was Christian or not. One could also argue that Christianity was responsible for the destruction of much of the intellectual heritage of the ancient world, through the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria (orchestrated by St.Cyril, if I'm not mistaken). This seems to be a case of the Christian Church preserving some of the classical heritage while destroying other parts, and so it is not easy to say what the net effect was.

    As for the influence of Christianity on our current crisis, that's difficult to say, since one could argue that most people in Western societies today are hedonistic-materialistic in their outlook, and not Christian at all, no matter what they call themselves. One could argue that some Christian tenets, such as the fundamental equality of man in the eyes of God, are at the root of liberalism, and so in turn at the root of many of today's problems, but that is also a controversial claim - many secular liberals would disavow any link between their ideology and Christianity.

    Still, despite these negative factors, I somewhat tentatively endorsed the 'positive effect' option in the poll, if only because I'm doubtful that a Europe that had never been Christian would be any better than the Europe of today, as opposed to simply different.
    Last edited by Telperion; Friday, June 11th, 2004 at 03:24 AM.

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    One can even ask whether Islam would ever had been founded if Christianity had not first become established in the Mediterranean basin, since Islam seems to incorporate some Christian tenets or assumptions into its doctrinal foundation - but, that's another speculative issue
    I thought about writing about this issue as well, but then decided not to do so.
    But its an interesting, although not directly to Europe correlated point. I am personally quite sure that there would be no Islam without Christianity.

    One could argue that some Christian tenets, such as the fundamental equality of man in the eyes of God, are at the root of liberalism, and so in turn at the root of many of today's problems, but that is also a controversial claim - many secular liberals would disavow any link between their ideology and Christianity.
    Thats what I say, especially about the reformed Anglocalvinism. And its the reason because I speak of religious and pseudoreligious views we as Europeans which want to preserve our collective(s) have to oppose.
    Because its clearly visible that left wing liberals and Neoliberals are both influenced by certain judaeo-christian views.
    Even if they are atheists, if you look back in history their ideology wouldnt have been possible, at least not exactly in that form, without Christianity, I'm quite sure about that.

    Without the Christian ideology/religion, the liberal-individualistic would have almost no base and probaby never appeared.
    Because Anglocalvinism is the result of certain Christian tendencies, we can clearly see that Christianity is responsible for this destructive liberal ideology.

    But again, Christianity is not just the last 200 years, but a much longer time, and as you said and I agree, we just cannot know what would be if...
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Without the Christian ideology/religion, the liberal-individualistic would have almost no base and probaby never appeared. Because Anglocalvinism is the result of certain Christian tendencies, we can clearly see that Christianity is responsible for this destructive liberal ideology.
    Victorian England was Predominantly Anglican/Protestant. But it wasn't destructively liberal in away. But Austere in the adherence of English Values.
    Germany at the time of the Nazis was also a very "Christian" Country.

    And both Societies were Conservative and Race Conscious.

    I don't think Christianity can be blamed as the Sole cause and Root of all Liberal Ideologies.

    I see Liberal-Individualistic Ideology as the result of a combination of Modern Economics.
    The strongest supporters of "Liberal Policies" are people who are involved in Business and Industry. They don't care how they effect society as long as they Satisfy their insatiable urge to Fill their Pockets. The precise reason they support these policies is they Feel Immune to it's Effects. If Poverty stricken immigrants commit crimes they aren't the targets. If they replace a white worker it will ony mean cheaper labor.
    Last edited by Northern Paladin; Friday, June 11th, 2004 at 09:48 PM.

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Well, GB was not liberal in the sense of "egalitarian-raceless", but social and if its about economy.
    And fully developed was this idioty just in the USA, were the most radical of them were gone.

    Furthermore from the Christian background many ideas and developments are possible, not just the liberal one, but the liberal was on of the ideas which were not, or not that easy possible without Christianity.

    So it would be wrong to say Christianity had to lead to this, but without Christianity you cannot understand certain parts of the liberal ideology.

    Conservative Christians were everything else but liberal, the only really liberal Christians are the Anglocalvinists because their point of view was that of the Bourgeois and (asocial) capitalist - plutocrat.

    Everything that followed can be just fully understood if this is recognized. It was not the only reason, there were many others and the Jews played a big role, but the Anglocalvinist background was important for THAT KIND of Liberalism in Europeans.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Furthermore from the Christian background many ideas and developments are possible, not just the liberal one, but the liberal was on of the ideas which were not, or not that easy possible without Christianity....but the Anglocalvinist background was important for THAT KIND of Liberalism in Europeans.
    This is a valid point. Christianity was recognized as a foundation or base by the 19th century liberals (if not modern ones), but really they were drawing from ideas chiefly developed by this Anglo-Calvinist interpretation. This suggests one can be critical of some aspects of Christianity's influence on Europe, without dismissing it wholesale as not having made significant positive contributions as well.

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    Post Re: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

    I think a distinction must be made. This discussion, in my opinion, must be seen from multiple points of view:

    1. The point of view of the religious ideology.
    2. The point of view of the clerics behaviour.
    3. The point of view of the Christian Church as an institution.

    And all this points of view should make a matrix with (for each one, we should take into account):

    1. The Christian orientation (Catholic..., Orthodox..., Protenstant..., Neo-protestant).
    2. The region.
    (3. The subrace and its behaviour characterstics, but here I am not on solid ground, so I avoid discussing this).

    Another level of indentation should concern a range of advantages and disadvantages for the European evolution, for each range of previously defined points of view.

    This is how one arrives to the most difficult part, which depends somehow on each individual and which takes into account the importance an individual offers to each of the previously mentioned advantages and disadvantages.

    I think this is the only objective way (not subjective) in which one can assert whether Christianism had or not a positive impact on the European evolution.
    But to treat all these problems takes many years, in my opinion. Someone can write more than a PhD in Social Sciences on this.

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