View Poll Results: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

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  • Yes Christianity did have a Positive Effect on Europe

    27 41.54%
  • Europe would have been better without Christianity's Influence

    11 16.92%
  • Christianity Ruined Europe

    21 32.31%
  • Christianity Strengthend Europe and Without it Europe would still be in the Dark Ages

    6 9.23%
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Thread: All In All Did Christianity Have A Positive Impact on Europe?

  1. #41
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    Christianity- as a religion- itself was neither good nor bad for Europe; it was just another religion- one of many- as I'm sure many of the locals considered it to be when the first missionaries hit the road.

    As with most religions, they're pretty benign on their own merits. It's when you get into HOW a religion is spread and how it runs its internal business is where things can begin to look a little sleazy.
    These are good points.

    You can only really judge things when they're gone and examine their legacy.

    And even then there are all the imponderables, such as what would have happened if Christianity had never arrived? It's impossible to say. Those Heathen tribes have a certain romantic appeal but would they have produced anything cohesive to the benefit of the continent as a whole?

    As for all the progress that Europe enjoyed during the Christian period (which is undeniable), I think that much of it would have happened anyway as mankind itself advanced.

    We simply don't know - and never will - how things would have played out in the absence of Christianity.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    And even then there are all the imponderables, such as what would have happened if Christianity had never arrived? It's impossible to say. Those Heathen tribes have a certain romantic appeal but would they have produced anything cohesive to the benefit of the continent as a whole?
    Germany would have reached soaring heights in cultural development, it would be the first nation to supersede ancient Greece (Rome only surpassed them technologically) and obtain the theoretical stage of culture (which even Greece failed to do).

    On the other hand, the Jewish swindle would have existed in other forms. Dreamers and drones are still a part of the world, even without Jewish involvement.

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  4. #43
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    Germany would have reached soaring heights in cultural development, it would be the first nation to supersede ancient Greece (Rome only surpassed them technologically) and obtain the theoretical stage of culture (which even Greece failed to do).
    How do you come to this conclusion, Terminus? And do you feel that Christianity prevented this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    How do you come to this conclusion, Terminus? And do you feel that Christianity prevented this?
    Severe climate forces people to turn inward towards an one-sided intellectual development. This also makes them insensitive with a disregard for others. The Soviet barbarisms wouldn't have been possible without this factor. Yet some races thrust into these conditions are endowed with either a latent instinct for metaphysics or for cultural creative ability. The Teutons and the Indians are very similar in that respect.

    Christianity thwarted this development at first (when it consisted mostly of the Jewish element) but gradually became ennobled or at least tolerable through the sacrifices of dissidents.

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  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
    Severe climate forces people to turn inward towards an one-sided intellectual development. This also makes them insensitive with a disregard for others. The Soviet barbarisms wouldn't have been possible without this factor. Yet some races thrust into these conditions are endowed with either a latent instinct for metaphysics or for cultural creative ability. The Teutons and the Indians are very similar in that respect.

    Christianity thwarted this development at first (when it consisted mostly of the Jewish element) but gradually became ennobled or at least tolerable through the sacrifices of dissidents.
    Well, this "becoming tolerable" (from Latin tolerare: to endure, ertragen, erdulden) prevented that we overcame christianity, or fend it off alltogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche
    Dass die starken Rassen des nördlichen Europa den christlichen Gott nicht von sich gestoßen haben, macht ihrer religiösen Begabung wahrlich keine Ehre - um nicht vom Geschmacke zu reden. Mit einer solchen krankhaften und altersschwachen Ausgeburt der décadence hätten sie fertig werden müssen. Aber es liegt ein Fluch dafür auf ihnen, dass sie nicht mit ihm fertig geworden sind: die haben die Krankheit, das Alter, den Widerspruch in alle ihre Instinkte aufgenommen - sie haben seitdem keinen Gott mehr geschaffen! Zwei Jahrtausende beinahe und nicht ein einziger neuer Gott! Sondern immer noch und wie zu Recht bestehend, wie ein ultimatum und maximum der gottbildenden Kraft, des creator spiritus im Menschen, dieser erbarmungswürdige Gott des christlichen Monotono-Theismus! Dies hybride Verfalls-Gebilde aus Null, Begriff und Widerspruch, in dem alle décadence-Instinkte, alle Feigheiten und Müdigkeiten der Seele ihre Sanktion haben!
    Der Antichrist, Kapitel 19 (for context, add chapter 17, 18)

    (sorry for the German post, but Nietzsche translations are just..meh)

    Indeed, we have taken a curse upon us for tolerating a foreign god to be imposed on us, instead of fending it off. It reveals a weakness in our minds and spirits, a lack of will and a gullible tendency to "get convinced" of whatever comes the way. Not without twisting it to our liking though, and we carved out against all odds the de facto greatest civilisation that the world ever saw. Nietzsche mused that this constant, underlying strife against the import-religion, that goes so deeply against our instincts actually, generated "civilisation" in northern Europe in the first place, and he has a point: in the same way christianity declined and lost its impact, the same way civilisation grew.

    Civilisation, however, has its own downpoints. It has little to no use for "culture", it has little to no use for Völker/nations, civilisation gravitates towards multiracial, multicultural empires, absorbing ever more "fresh ideas" to keep the motor of civilisation/growth going, and when it crashes from its own multiracial weight (and history is full of examples of fallen empires) and absense of cohesion, they have all one thing in common: the original founding race goes extinct, while the periphery usually returns to part pre-civilisation lifestyles and recovers. Just to repeat, occasionally, the glaringly obvious failures of the empire that left the power vacuum in which they then in return thrived.

    In terms of "alternative" history, SaxonPagan, Europe could have developed also without christianity, and probably had learned in the process to value Volk/Nation in the first place and not growth/empire, namely by the invading hordes of the Mongols and the earlier waves of invasion. The Russian nation was carved out against this threat, and they then, unfortunately for them, burdened themselves with the empire they originally fought against, which stifles their civilisatory process to this day. But the hordes also came deep into western Europe, if this had been the struggle we had faced, there's a good chance that we had invested our "carving out against all odds" abilities into fending off those empire attempts, specially considering that the ideas of "united Germanic tribes" were rather brutally ended (Arminius) only a couple generations earlier, and some tribes withstood the christian, european empire into the 15th, 16th century as well. Submitting just so was, despite claims to the contrary, not always our thing.

    The christian idea of "Europe", however, is a multiracial empire, Romanic peoples, Italier, Greeks, Germanics, Balts, Slavs..., christianity doesnt care and sweeps them all under the same rug. So I'm not sure if "the benefit of the continent" is even a desireable question. As nationalists, we reject the idea of multiracialism, dont we, even if these other races are undoubtly European or even Aryan. Maybe the German (and Austrian) way to go about such things, when we were "empires", had brought the greatest benefit to the continent. While claiming authority over territories, we did not claim authority over the Volk, their customs, their language or whatever. Serbia was as independent as possible within the Austrian empire, and so was Hungary and Croatia and Böhmen, and when the Austrian empire was regime changed and broken apart, it did no big damage to either entity (in terms of Volk identity) within, and the same is true for the Prussian empire with its periphery. None of them dreamed of a "all-european empire", they were by and large concerned with their immediate backyards only.

    Quite in contrast to Spanish, Portugese, British, French and even Netherlands, who expanded their empires straight around the globe as soon as they had ships to do so, with absolutely no concern for their "home region", their people, their culture. Europe could have learned to say no to demands of the colonised to be allowed to settle in France en masse (f.e.), America could have simply shipped the liberated slaves back to Africa and not give in to blah about "fairness" and "rights", the Netherlands could have rejected their colonials in their homeland etc. All these empires however eagerly threw away their homelands and identity, and all of them were catholic (Netherlands was long under Spanish rule/catholic, and Anglicism only has a thin coat of "protestanism" upon its catholic belly). So, our German stubborn peculiarism and often criticised "Kleinstaaterei" maybe had been the greatest benefit to the continent. Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen, it's not a NS quotation, it's a Kaiser-era quote. Maybe "Europe" would not be perceived as a whole, but according to actual identities would be several "units".
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  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Well, this "becoming tolerable" (from Latin tolerare: to endure, ertragen, erdulden) prevented that we overcame christianity, or fend it off alltogether.
    True. Thanks for the etymology reminder.

    I still think there is some merit in keeping a risk nearby. Sparta was constantly threatened by revolts from helots, Rome was constantly perturbed by Jewish revolts. Other countries found solace in their walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    (sorry for the German post, but Nietzsche translations are just..meh)
    Understandable, several prominent translations into English are from Jews. Also, thanks for the Nietzsche quote. Good read!

    He is right: 2000 years gone by and no substitute, no new ideal of god has triumphed over the dualistic conscience Providence. I think the only god conception which has a chance at overthrowing the Jewish god is Fate itself, necessity as the highest ideal. But this has been hitherto neglected since most religious non-Christians are endeared with a form of religion (ritual, customs) or an abstract idea of god.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Nietzsche mused that this constant, underlying strife against the import-religion, that goes so deeply against our instincts actually, generated "civilisation" in northern Europe in the first place, and he has a point: in the same way christianity declined and lost its impact, the same way civilisation grew.
    That's a good observation. In NS Germany, industrialization was meant to play a huge role despite being perceived as anti-cultural. Herbert Spencer's warnings about all forms of socialism leading to tyranny was justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Civilisation, however, has its own downpoints. It has little to no use for "culture", it has little to no use for Völker/nations, civilisation gravitates towards multiracial, multicultural empires, absorbing ever more "fresh ideas" to keep the motor of civilisation/growth going, and when it crashes from its own multiracial weight (and history is full of examples of fallen empires) and absense of cohesion, they have all one thing in common: the original founding race goes extinct, while the periphery usually returns to part pre-civilisation lifestyles and recovers.
    Just to repeat, occasionally, the glaringly obvious failures of the empire that left the power vacuum in which they then in return thrived.
    I'm glad to see you're distinguishing between civilization and culture. Civilization is purely mechanical (i.e. America), usurps instinct with the intellect, is wholly devoid of content (it has been treated as an end in itself rather than a means to an end) and it's utter dearth of creativity obliges it to profit off of great minds who become it's inevitable victims (posthumously and unceremoniously recognized, or in the worst case scenario, monopolized as a great Jew/Christian).

    There are some who argue that the disappearance of the founding blood is insignificant since their spirit still persists. But a healthy body is the prerequisite to a healthy mind.

    IMO the best and healthiest members of Europe should be safeguarded, the rest can be delivered over to perdition or sacrifice themselves if they are just being a burden, occupying vast space and doing nothing productive with it. Greece, France, Italy, Sweden, etc. have been cultural bearers in the past but have passed the torch, forfeited the Aryan Mantle, through an influx of mediocrities produced by racial mixture. When they cease behaving like Aryans, can they still be considered Aryan? Aryan should be seen as something to be earned and maintained, not as a privilege by birth. With the exception of Greece and perhaps Italy, it wouldn't affect me if these other nations were to disappear in the future struggle. Eckart's view of the non-Jewish nations as upholders of the hereafter conception is justified. The many can fall away as long as there is this one big bright light situated over the others.

    Of course, the Russian/Slavic element should play a role in shaping Europe and a future alliance between Germany/Russia (not under Merkel/Putin) is necessary to confront American interests. In the Table Talk, Hitler mentions Beethoven as a master of genius (product of a Germanic/Slavonic mixture) and in Otto Wagener's memoirs (German Hitler aus nächster Nähe, p.g. 418), he similarly mentions how a Germanic/Roman mixture can produce great men, although unstable.

    There are others who argue that there is one white race of equal status. I oppose white nationalism out of principle; it comes at the expense of Germans since it demands for their assimilation (Abraham Lincoln is hailed in their circles as one of them) and to put aside their differences with rival nations (i.e. France, Poland) instead of settling their affairs decisively. It is predominantly American and ignores the differences between America and Europe. It rates unity/success as the highest good, so it is the same as Otto Strasser and Churchill's reactionary views.

    Otto Strasser put European identity before national identity. Check Henry A. Wallace's diary for Churchill's view:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ET...q=race+concept

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  10. #47
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    Religion, and I purposely use the term in a generic way, is a mechanism to unite a nation. It is in the common worship of a set of values and principles that unites a people and gives them a moral compass. That Christianity, and in particular Catholicism, crossed boundaries and gave, say, Spaniards, a common religion with Poles, was a mixed blessing. It did allow a united Europe to repel the Islamic hordes in 1683. Conversely, its schism gave rise to the Thirty Years' War which devastated German lands. The blessing was that Europe was pretty much the exclusive domain of Christianity until 1492. Europeans defined Christianity more than St. Paul ever did. In reality, they made it their own. In a way, it did unite Europe and probably prevented us from annihilating each other in perpetual warfare just enough to let us rise to be what we did become. As such, I don't think it was really such a bad thing, on balance.
    Most people think as they are trained to think, and most people make a majority.

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  12. #48
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    A religion that requires you to be saved. That can only mean trouble.
    The Norse and Celtic gods, Europe's true gods, should return, and we need to reclaim Europe for them.
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    Any religion that becomes politicized loses its true meaning and goal. It will kill masses of people.

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    Quite true. The Thirty Years' War was initially a religious one but then took on a more political form to become a struggle between the Habsburgs and the rest of Europe.

    It was the Catholic v. Protestant issue that lit the touch paper though.

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