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Thread: The Celts

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    New Member Vinlander's Avatar
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    The Celts

    Its a commonly known fact that Modern Irish, Scots, etc come from the Celtic branch of the Genealogical tree, and that the Celt's "pre"-Historic origins lie within the borders of modern day Germany, and they simply spread out from there.

    What I'm curious about is if modern Irish (this is not taking into account the settlement of Ireland by the Norse in the medieval period), Scots, would still be considered a Germanic culture given the origins of the ancient Celts, or have they splint into an entirely new branch of their own, completely separate from the Germanic tree.

    Then again you have the Saxons, etc who are obviously Germanic in the British aisles as well.

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    They're too complicated to be merely Celts, but they're certainly not Germanic either. Such terms aren't really applicable anymore or overlap in much of Europe anyway (France being a the best example IMO -- an amalgam of Celtic, Germanic, & Romance culture & ancestry).

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    Senior Member Ediruc's Avatar
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    Wouldn't they be regarded on racial terms? Also, the Scots have Germanic influences, such as some Anglo and Norse.

    Is there a picture comparing a Celtic skeleton to a Germanic skeleton? I would think that to be very interesting to see.

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    Senior Member Einarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEdiruc View Post
    Wouldn't they be regarded on racial terms? Also, the Scots have Germanic influences, such as some Anglo and Norse.

    Is there a picture comparing a Celtic skeleton to a Germanic skeleton? I would think that to be very interesting to see.
    That's a funny question. Neither of them are wholly genetically distinct groups which you can label as "just germanic" or "just celtic." It is not that simplistic. They overlap too much to be separated in such a way.

    Culturally speaking however, and also in how they identify themselves (on average), I do not consider Ireland and most of Scotland to be "Germanic." Discussing genetics though is another matter entirely.

    Wouldn't they be regarded on racial terms? Also, the Scots have Germanic influences, such as some Anglo and Norse.
    Well, so does Ireland (just as Scotland does). You wouldn't perhaps be reaching for that considering your listed ancestry, would you?

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    Senior Member Ediruc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Einarr View Post
    Well, so does Ireland (just as Scotland does). You wouldn't perhaps be reaching for that considering your listed ancestry, would you?
    As far as history goes, I know Ireland has had its share of Norse raids and settlements. From what I've read those said Norse raids and settlements had little effect on the general Celtic population of Ireland. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Vikings actually carried off their Irish brides to Iceland or whatever countries they came from, instead of staying in Ireland. As far as I know, Ireland hasn't had much Anglo-Saxon influence. We also have to remember that Scotland was first inhabited by the Picts, who have been theorized to be a Nordic people, and probably not Mediterranean or Celtic.

    I know I should do more research and homework on Scotland, before I start making any assumptions, but just from what I read, Scotland seems to have had more a Germanic influence than Ireland.

    As far as I'm concerned, Ireland is Celtic country 100%, with Wales, of course.

    In fact, this topic was discussed and polled to death.

    I know somewhere down my lineage there is an Irish, but there are so many Germans in my lineage too that the Celt got drowned out. I wouldn't consider any kinship to the Celts, but that doesn't mean they can't be considered friends.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=128586

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    Senior Member Angus's Avatar
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    Its a commonly known fact that Modern Irish, Scots, etc come from the Celtic branch of the Genealogical tree

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    Senior Member Einarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ædiruc View Post
    As far as history goes, I know Ireland has had its share of Norse raids and settlements. From what I've read those said Norse raids and settlements had little effect on the general Celtic population of Ireland. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Vikings actually carried off their Irish brides to Iceland or whatever countries they came from, instead of staying in Ireland. As far as I know, Ireland hasn't had much Anglo-Saxon influence. We also have to remember that Scotland was first inhabited by the Picts, who have been theorized to be a Nordic people, and probably not Mediterranean or Celtic.

    I know I should do more research and homework on Scotland, before I start making any assumptions, but just from what I read, Scotland seems to have had more a Germanic influence than Ireland.

    As far as I'm concerned, Ireland is Celtic country 100%, with Wales, of course.

    In fact, this topic was discussed and polled to death.

    I know somewhere down my lineage there is an Irish, but there are so many Germans in my lineage too that the Celt got drowned out. I wouldn't consider any kinship to the Celts, but that doesn't mean they can't be considered friends.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=128586
    Have you ever looked at genetic mapping of Northern/NorthWestern Europe? Apparently not..

    You cannot even define "celtic" as a genetic group, it is far too broad a term to be used to even explain what you mean. Why does Norway, the Netherlands, England, etc overlap with Scotland/Ireland so much? Why are North/NW Germany, Denmark, and Sweden close-by? Further, you cannot lump Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, etc all into one "genetic" category and simply call them "celtic."

    I hate arguing this because it causes unnecessary strife for this forum, and it is a conflict of interest (for Skadi). Understand that I am not asserting that Ireland or even all of Scotland can be considered a "Germanic" country. I am not trying to force anything at all. I am simply saying that on a genetic basis, you cannot argue for total distinction and separation. If you could, then England itself would be on its way out too, as well as Iceland and so on. Culturally speaking however, and also in how they often identify themselves (Ireland/much of Scotland), then I do not consider them to be Germanic countries.

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    Most Irish appear to be typical N-W Europeans in both apperance and DNA. Why Ireland is Celtic I do not know, but DNA doesn't care whether you are Celtic or Germanic. A majority of the Irish probably belong to some proto-Celtic/proto-Germanic people who settled Ireland a long time ago, and thus they are more closely related to other N-W Europeans instead of Central European and Spanish Celts.

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    Senior Member Æğele Wiğercwida's Avatar
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    Well, we should consider that an island is isolated and so forms its own unique culture.

    From what little I know, the celts originated from the same place as the Germanics. In fact, they seem to be different tribes of the same group. Look at the art and the culture.

    What is it that actually separates the Celts from the Germanics. Self-identification cannot be the issue here. For if it was, surely the Scandinavians would not be considered Germanic, or Britain (Christ! Try calling a Brit Germanic...they will go mental!) - and what would remain Germanic is merely Germany....which would not be accurate.

    So, can we have a list of what exactly separates Celts form Germanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnUk Activist View Post
    Well, we should consider that an island is isolated and so forms its own unique culture.

    From what little I know, the celts originated from the same place as the Germanics. In fact, they seem to be different tribes of the same group. Look at the art and the culture.

    What is it that actually separates the Celts from the Germanics. Self-identification cannot be the issue here. For if it was, surely the Scandinavians would not be considered Germanic, or Britain (Christ! Try calling a Brit Germanic...they will go mental!) - and what would remain Germanic is merely Germany....which would not be accurate.

    So, can we have a list of what exactly separates Celts form Germanics.
    It can be a difficult question to answer indeed. In some areas, such as Iceland, eastern Ireland, northwestern England, Scotland etc we have had some areas where Celts and Germanics (like Vikings), have met and mixed and created some sort of society where both cultures have made marks, with the Norse-Gaels and all that. Sometimes the exact line between Celts and Germanics is blurry. That's why I sometimes use the term N-W European instead of Germanic, although I respect the term Germanic alot as well. It just seems that Irish people would have more in common with English than with Celts from Spain or Italy, this we can also see on DNA tests where Ireland cluster closely with England and other North European countries more than with southern Europe.

    This is of course just my "theory".

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