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Thread: The Celts

  1. #21
    New Member Zitchen's Avatar
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    I don't know about any of you, but have you ever been in a museum admiring some ancient piece of Germanic art only to come to find it's Celtic, or vice versa? I have had this happen several times, and the similarities are undeniable, and in their similarities are both distinctive from art from other places in the world.

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    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    First of all I think many of you are getting terms confused.
    -Celtic is not a racial group.
    -Celtic is a cultural-linguistic group. I read Henri Hubert's "Rise of the Celts".
    -The Celtics stretched from Ireland to Spain to Turkey to Ukraine.
    -They originated in Southern Germany along the Danube (Danu is the Celtic god).

    Second of all, the Scandinavian racial influence on Britain is far less than many think. Studies have found that no more than 5% of eastern England has Scandinavian paternal DNA. Some areas in Scotland have huge amounts of Scandinavian DNA however around 50%.

    The Celtic and Germanic cultures are not hard to understand if you do some research on your own. Read their entire wikipedia pages, read a book or two about each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinlander View Post
    Its a commonly known fact that Modern Irish, Scots, etc come from the Celtic branch of the Genealogical tree, and that the Celt's "pre"-Historic origins lie within the borders of modern day Germany, and they simply spread out from there.

    What I'm curious about is if modern Irish (this is not taking into account the settlement of Ireland by the Norse in the medieval period), Scots, would still be considered a Germanic culture given the origins of the ancient Celts, or have they splint into an entirely new branch of their own, completely separate from the Germanic tree.
    Opinions vary.

    My own opinion, based on gathering together lots of different information, is that the key to understanding these similarities and differences in culture and ethnicity in Europe lies largely in the Bronze Age.

    It appears to me that regions known to the Romans as "Germanic" roughly coincide with the area settled in the Bronze Age by the Corded people, and the Celtic regions roughly coincide with those settled by the "Dinarid" (of which, in my view, the so-called "Keltic Nordic" is only a slight variant form) people who developed a culture in Northern Spain, and subsequently spread to Northern France, Ireland, and then the Alpine Highlands and southern Germany.

    My view is that these "Dinarids", who, before spreading across the mediterranean and into Northern Spain, had appeared first in Asia Minor, were the original Indo-Europeans.

    The Corded people may have spoken a language which survives in some form in Finnish, Estonian etc.

    Then some of these IE (or Celtic in this case) Dinarids went North into the Corded lands during the Bronze Age, the result being something of a mixture of culture and language, to the extent that the Dinarid group was basically absorbed into the Corded, but the language which prevailed was very roughly Indo-European.
    But when Iron was developed by these IE/Celtic Dinarids in the Alps, this gave them a distinct advantage over the Northern Corded-based peoples, which resulted in the Hallstatt invasions, introducing Iron to Scandinavia and the rest of Germany (and also France and Britain), as well as reinforcing the IE, Celtic element to the Germanic languages.

    I think this hypothesis is supported by the fact that the Germanic languages are an unusual branch of Indo-European, more strongly influenced by non-IE than any other branch.


    So to sum up, the people historically known as Celts are ethnically and linguistically descended from Indo-European people who were racially of a "Keltic" or Dinarid phenotype, and the Germanics are ethnically basically descended from the Corded people, but with a superstrate of influence from these Indo-Europeans, whose language largely prevailed.

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    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    Rhydderch,

    There are a couple things I must say

    1) The Indo-Europeans were originally from between the black and Caspian seas in modern day southern Russia. Read the book "the 10,000 year explosion". There is an entire section devoted to this. They are hypothesized to be a nomadic horse group that was able to conquer vast amounts of area like the Mongols did a few hundreds of years ago.

    2) The Indo-Europeans didn't genetically influence Europe much. A few of their genes that were beneficial such as lactose tolerance were slightly favored overtime and became dominate in present day Europe. Other than that it is fairly obvious to assume that they didn't just JUMP from between the Caspian sea and the Black sea into modern day balkins where the Dinards live today.

    3) People lived in Europe before the Indo-European expansion and probably spoke a Basque like language. We don't know exactly how the expansion happened. Maybe they took over one group then that group took over another and so on.

    4) The Indo-European influence on Europe is largely a linguistic influence rather than a genetic influence!

    Again read the book "10,000 year explosion" for detailed information on this.

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    Senior Member Hrogar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    I think this hypothesis is supported by the fact that the Germanic languages are an unusual branch of Indo-European, more strongly influenced by non-IE than any other branch.
    Which non-IE language wiuld that be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrogar View Post
    Which non-IE language wiuld that be?
    Well I guess we can only speculate. What's clear is that there is a very strong element in the Germanic languages which cannot be traced to proto-Indo-European, and is quite possibly derived from language groups now extinct, but as I suggested in my post, it may be that the Corded people spoke a language of which the modern Finnish group is largely a survival. Perhaps this ancient "Corded" language is responsible for much of the substrate in Germanic, but I don't really know.

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    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    Rhydderch,

    I disagree...

    1) Germanic languages ARE classified as an Indo-European language. Read about why they make this classification- it is very detailed. As for a major influence by a Non-Indo-European language- I highly doubt it- the top linguists will agree with me.

    2) Finnish is the eponymous member of the Finno-Ugric language family and is typologically between fusional and agglutinative languages. It modifies and inflects the forms of nouns, adjectives, pronouns, numerals and verbs, depending on their roles in the sentence.

    3) Germanic languages have influence by Celtic and Slavic languages and probably VERY LITTLE BY Finnno-Ugric languages. Look at the geographics- Germanic languges were surrounded by Celtic and Slavic tribes.

    4) Before the Indo-European language expansion it is hypothesized that Europeans spoke languages similar to Basque.

    5)
    it may be that the Corded people spoke a language of which the modern Finnish group is largely a survival.
    You cannot say that a certain skull shape spoke a certain langauge because when you look at archeological finds- they find within certain cultures- Le Tene for example- they find diverse skull shapes. I read the book "Rise of the Celts" by Henri Hubert to understand this. The sub-races of our populations were mixed as far back as archeological finds go- pointing towards a very distant origin for these skull differences- and mixing between skull types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wynterwade View Post
    Rhydderch,

    I disagree...

    1) Germanic languages ARE classified as an Indo-European language. Read about why they make this classification- it is very detailed. As for a major influence by a Non-Indo-European language- I highly doubt it- the top linguists will agree with me.
    Of course the Germanic languages are Indo-European, but this doesn't say anything about a possible pre-Indo-European substratum which could have influenced the Germanic languages. As far as I know linguists generally agree that there are quite some non-Indo-European influences in Germanic languages. We don't know which language; perhaps it was a language spoken by the people from the pre-Indo-European Megalith-culture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wynterwade View Post
    5)
    You cannot say that a certain skull shape spoke a certain langauge because when you look at archeological finds- they find within certain cultures- Le Tene for example- they find diverse skull shapes. I read the book "Rise of the Celts" by Henri Hubert to understand this. The sub-races of our populations were mixed as far back as archeological finds go- pointing towards a very distant origin for these skull differences- and mixing between skull types.

    Corded-ware is a culture. Probably they were the bearers of Indo-European language in contrast to the Megalith-culture with whom they merged to form the Germanic group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wynterwade View Post
    First of all I think many of you are getting terms confused.
    -Celtic is not a racial group.
    -Celtic is a cultural-linguistic group. I read Henri Hubert's "Rise of the Celts".
    -The Celtics stretched from Ireland to Spain to Turkey to Ukraine.
    -They originated in Southern Germany along the Danube (Danu is the Celtic god).
    You are correct,Celtic is not a racial group.It is a cultural-linguistic group that
    spread both far and wide.But do you know what the main difference is between
    a Celt,German and Teuton?


    Second of all, the Scandinavian racial influence on Britain is far less than many think. Studies have found that no more than 5% of eastern England has Scandinavian paternal DNA. Some areas in Scotland have huge amounts of Scandinavian DNA however around 50%.

    I don't think I really believe this.I have seen so many different opinions on
    this subject that sometimes I think there might be something Political behind
    some of there findings.Take me for example,most of my people have been
    in the U.S. for a long time.Most of my people came from Great Britain but most
    of my paternal and maternal DNA results match with R1b/s21/u106 haplotype.
    That Haplotype is mainly found in Denmark,Frisia and Holland.So either some
    of my Ancient kinfolk where Anglo-Saxons or I am just a lucky American.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Wynterwade's Avatar
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    Bernhard

    1) Saying what you did shows that you understand little about linguistic differences. I've studied Basque myself (bought a textbook and audio CD) and the distance between it and Indo-European is massive. This is the type of linguistic difference that determines a non-indo-european influence. I could go through the examples (words like mother- ama, father- aita, words for animals etc.) but I'll leave the experts who agree with me to argue my case. There is a tremendous amount of work done on this subject- and the data is overwhelming- if you would take the time to read it. Read books on linguistics and a good place to start is on wikipedia.

    If you'd like to argue that Germanic languages have non-indo-european influence please give me some scientific examples or names of linguists who agree with you.

    2) Yes, they name cultures after skull shapes that they find- however- and this has happened countless times- they will find nearby during the same time period THE EXACT SAME CULTURE with different skull shapes- again read the book "Rise of the Celts" for examples. The populations were mixed as far back as well documented archeological findings go.

    Onewulf-
    I don't think I really believe this.I have seen so many different opinions on
    this subject that sometimes I think there might be something Political behind
    some of there findings.
    Anyways, the data I used was from the most comprehensive study done on England- I have a quiz in a few minutes so I need to study- look it up. Also read the book "The blood of the Isles" - I think that is the name.

    This is factual data- backed statistically- and is verifiable- It is not an opinion it is fact!

    I will look up my sources this afternoon and post them on here.

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