View Poll Results: Should EN's & NC's Ally with each other?

Voters
11. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    7 63.64%
  • No

    2 18.18%
  • Maybe

    2 18.18%
  • Other (please explain)

    0 0%
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Euro-Nationalist Vs. Ultra-Conservative

  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    4 Weeks Ago @ 10:20 AM
    Ethnicity
    Celtic-Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    437
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    12
    Thanked in
    12 Posts

    Euro-Nationalist Vs. Ultra-Conservative

    It's always bugged me how the different Euro-Nationalist & Ultra-Conservative political parties continue to fight each other instead of uniting on common group. In Europe at the moment their are two major groups on the "far-right" (as the media puts it), their are the Ultra-conservative/National-conservative groups like the DDP (DEN), True Finns, LOAS (GRE), Lega Nord (ITA), Slovak National Party, National Democrats (SWE) & the PVV (NED) etc, whilst their are also Euro-Nationalist groups like the FN (FRA), BNP (UK), VB (BEL), FPO/BZO (AUT) & Jobbik (HUN) etc.
    After going through alot of these parties ideologies/objectives I see alot of common ground on important issues like Islam, Immigration, EU etc.

    So my question is why can't both of these groups co-operate on these issues? why do they continue to distance themselves from each other? (sometimes even calling each other "fascists" or "zionists"). I understand that in most cases the National-conservative groups have better public images and higher voter %'s than the Euro-Nationalist groups (not in every case though) but it still seems very counter-productive of them not to co-operate on common issues. For instance if every party listed above formed a single group in the EU then they would have 32 MEP's (enough to form a formal group in parliament).

    What do you guys think? is their enough common ground? are they too different? or is an alliance between the two un-necessary?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    velvet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Online
    Sunday, March 8th, 2020 @ 04:10 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Northern Germany
    Subrace
    Faelid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    North Rhine-Westphalia North Rhine-Westphalia
    Gender
    Age
    47
    Zodiac Sign
    Sagittarius
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Pestilent Supremacy
    Politics
    Blut und Boden
    Religion
    Fimbulwinter
    Posts
    5,000
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,295
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,471
    Thanked in
    667 Posts
    This is an interesting question, though I think the categorisation you made is not exactly correct concerning conservatives vs nationalist and their goals are indeed not the same at all.

    Dont know all of those parties nor their programmes in depths, but you list for example the Swedish Social Democrats together with the Danish People's Party. Their programme is so vastly different, this really doesnt work. The Swedes want immigrants to integrate, while the DPP does everything (not without success) to limit immigration. So their goals and opinions are very different.

    The next problem is that it have been conservative parties who supported the foundation of the EU, while nationalist parties (like for example the BNP) wants to leave the EU and re-form independend nation states.

    These are two very different roads of politics which cant work together, in fact it is that they work indeed against each other, they have fundamentally different imagination about what their country or the EU should be or not be.

    And then there is this question, on the background that it has been conservatives who gave up their nation's independence and also started to import "guest-workers" when there was full employment in the 60s/70s, what do conservatives actually conserve? This surely is not independence or a pro-indigenous people stance, but a capitalist controlled superficial "conservatism" in favor of the capitalist market and global players, more often than not on the expense of indigenous people.

    A cooperation therefore cannot happen, nor would this be a good thing. People who really want to make a difference should support the nationalist parties like BNP and Vlaams Belang, who stand up against the EU and its (il-)legislations.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Patrioten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Online
    Saturday, June 27th, 2020 @ 11:02 PM
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Country
    Sweden Sweden
    Gender
    Politics
    Conservative
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    1,920
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    16
    Thanked in
    15 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Dont know all of those parties nor their programmes in depths, but you list for example the Swedish Social Democrats together with the Danish People's Party. Their programme is so vastly different, this really doesnt work. The Swedes want immigrants to integrate, while the DPP does everything (not without success) to limit immigration. So their goals and opinions are very different.
    The national democratic party is different from the Sweden democrats, whilst the latter are civic nationalists the former are ethnic nationalists.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    velvet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Online
    Sunday, March 8th, 2020 @ 04:10 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Northern Germany
    Subrace
    Faelid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    North Rhine-Westphalia North Rhine-Westphalia
    Gender
    Age
    47
    Zodiac Sign
    Sagittarius
    Family
    Married
    Occupation
    Pestilent Supremacy
    Politics
    Blut und Boden
    Religion
    Fimbulwinter
    Posts
    5,000
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,295
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,471
    Thanked in
    667 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten
    The national democratic party is different from the Sweden democrats, whilst the latter are civic nationalists the former are ethnic nationalists.
    Ah, sorry. Seems I mixed them up.
    Mostly I've heard about the Sweden Democrats, not sure whether I've ever heard about the National Democrats?

    Have they any relevance on the political stage? I mean in elections, can they gather enough votes and stuff?
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Patrioten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Online
    Saturday, June 27th, 2020 @ 11:02 PM
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Country
    Sweden Sweden
    Gender
    Politics
    Conservative
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    1,920
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    16
    Thanked in
    15 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Ah, sorry. Seems I mixed them up.
    Mostly I've heard about the Sweden Democrats, not sure whether I've ever heard about the National Democrats?

    Have they any relevance on the political stage? I mean in elections, can they gather enough votes and stuff?
    They are a minor party, originally an off-shoot from the Sweden Democrats made up of disgruntled ethnic nationalists. They got 3064 votes or 0,06% of the total votes in the general election 2006.

  6. #6
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Online
    4 Weeks Ago @ 10:20 AM
    Ethnicity
    Celtic-Germanic
    Gender
    Posts
    437
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    12
    Thanked in
    12 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Dont know all of those parties nor their programmes in depths, but you list for example the Swedish Social Democrats together with the Danish People's Party. Their programme is so vastly different, this really doesnt work. The Swedes want immigrants to integrate, while the DPP does everything (not without success) to limit immigration. So their goals and opinions are very different.
    Actually In the Swedish Democrat's ideology they do state that... (from wiki)

    "The critical ingredient of a safe, harmonic, solid and supportive society is the common identity, which in turn requires a high degree of ethnic and cultural uniformity amongst the people. From this, it follows that the nationalist principle, the principle of one state, one nation, is absolutely fundamental to the Sweden Democrats’ political values. The nationalist principle is based on the concept of the nation state, that the territorial boundaries of the state shall coincide with its demographic boundaries. In its ideal form, such a society is therefore ethnically homogenous. [...] Cultural diversity is as necessary to mankind as biological diversity is to nature. The different cultures are mankind’s common heritage and they should be acknowledged and kept apart for the benefit of us all.[...] Countries containing a multiple of relatively strong cultures have tended to develop in such a way that they end up diluting the different ethnicities and totally eradicating their original identities. We the Sweden Democrats believe that the safest way to protect the diversity of cultures, taking into consideration respect for human rights, is to do so as much as possible in the paradigm of the nation state. (Sverigedemokraterna 2003)"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Democrats
    So they do seem to have alot in common with Euro-Nationalist parties, even if they don't know it (or admit it). I personally get the feeling that they only distance themselves because of the latter's more controversial status, however from what I've heard the SD are considered just as 'evil' & 'extreme' by the Swedish MSM as the BNP are in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    The next problem is that it have been conservative parties who supported the foundation of the EU, while nationalist parties (like for example the BNP) wants to leave the EU and re-form independend nation states.
    It is sort of a grey-area for the National Conservative parties - some of their members often state that they need to leave the EU whilst others say that they can simply 'reform' it (dreamers). Although generally speaking most of the NC's do seem to be very anti-EU at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    The national democratic party is different from the Sweden democrats, whilst the latter are civic nationalists the former are ethnic nationalists.
    From their policies the SD don't strike me as a 'civic' nationalist party, civic nationalist's never mention race, the SD do.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Patrioten's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Online
    Saturday, June 27th, 2020 @ 11:02 PM
    Ethnicity
    Swedish
    Country
    Sweden Sweden
    Gender
    Politics
    Conservative
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    1,920
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    16
    Thanked in
    15 Posts
    So they do seem to have alot in common with Euro-Nationalist parties, even if they don't know it (or admit it). I personally get the feeling that they only distance themselves because of the latter's more controversial status, however from what I've heard the SD are considered just as 'evil' & 'extreme' by the Swedish MSM as the BNP are in the UK.
    To a degree I am certain that it is a tactical move by the party, to what extent though I cannot say for sure.

    From their policies the SD don't strike me as a 'civic' nationalist party, civic nationalist's never mention race, the SD do.
    För den svenska nationens del gäller följande: svensk är den som av sig själv och som av andra uppfattas som svensk. I praktiken innebär detta ett slags öppen svenskhet, med möjlighet för människor med annat ursprung att tillhöra den svenska nationen. Dock, nationstillhörighet är inte detsamma som medborgarskap. Att helt uppgå i en nation kan ta flera generationer. Däremot ska medborgarskap kunna erhållas även av icke-svenskar, så länge detta inte leder till en allvarlig kränkning av den nationalistiska principen. I huvudsak ska dock svenskt medborgarskap vara ett privilegium avsett för svenskar.

    For the Swedish nation the following is applicable: Swedish is he who by himself and by others is considered as Swedish. Practically this means a sort of open Swedishness, with the ability for people of a different origin to belong to the Swedish nation. However, belonging to a nation is not the same as citizenship. To fully belong to a nation can take several generations. Citizenship should be attainable by non-Swedes as long as this does not lead to a serious violation of the nationalistic principle (one nation-one state my note). In principle however, Swedish citizenship should be a privilege designed for Swedes.

    Principen omöjliggör inte invandring. Däremot måste invandringen hållas på en sådan nivå att den inte i grunden förändrar befolkningssammansättningen på så vis att etniska enklaver uppstår. När så ändå har skett finns det två möjliga lösningar: a) återvandring och b) assimilering - det vill säga att de, som invandrat, tar till sig majoritetskulturen och på sikt uppgår i nationen.

    The principle does not exclude immigration. However the immigration must be kept at such a level that it does not fundamentally transform the make-up of the people in such a way that ethnic enclaves emerge. When so has happened there are two possible solutions: repatriation and b) assimilation - that is that those who have immigrated, embraces the majority culture and in the long run becomes part of the nation.

    This party document is from 2003 however, they could very well change it again before the election.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Funding Membership Inactive
    Sigurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Online
    Wednesday, September 30th, 2020 @ 10:35 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    Bavarii, Saxones, Suebi, Alamanni
    Subrace
    Borreby + Atlantonordoid
    Country
    Germany Germany
    Location
    Einöde in den Alpen
    Gender
    Age
    32
    Zodiac Sign
    Libra
    Family
    Engaged
    Politics
    Tradition & Homeland
    Religion
    Odinist
    Posts
    9,129
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    77
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    393
    Thanked in
    280 Posts
    This still essentially makes the SD an "ethnic Nationalist" party rather than a "civic Nationalist" one. They are concerned about the ethnic/genetic make-up of the nation, wishing to keep immigration at an absolute minimum, i.e. at levels where this is no danger to the Swedish folk, language, culture and ultimately gene pool. By extension this means that extra-Europeans are basically off the bill.

    This basically goes in line with what appears a pragmatic rather than separatist approach: For instance, no one would consider WWII pilot-ace Nowotny as un-German/un-Austrian, basically having a Slavic-stemming name is considered "über-Viennese" these days for instance, but no one would claim the Nawratils and Pospeschils are Czechs these days, they count as just as Austrian because they've been there for so many generations that they've assimilated into the general collective. In fact, Strache is originally a Bohemian (but Germanised much earlier, from Straka) name as well, not to speak about Vilimsky.

    Allowing for small-scale immigration at levels where those immigrating are of a small genetic and at best medium cultural alienity to the extent where there is no danger to overall collective is not per se a defeating argument to ethnic Nationalism. It would be civic Nationalism if people were free to choose whether they be Albanian Muslims or Swedish Protestants --- where it'd take something like 10 generations for them to be considered Swedish if they do immigrate and inter-mix to an extent where their successors are 1/1024 Albanian, then this is still ethnic Nationalism, perhaps, as it at least takes into account not only the cultural, but also the ethnic perspective.

    ---------------------------------------------------
    PS: Just to note - since people from outside Europe, and even sometimes within Europe still haven't understood this: The BZÖ is NOT a nationalist party, it is basically a Liberal party, just that it has some National-Liberal/Libertarian membership and votership base. Policywise, they're a mixture between the ÖVP and the German FDP these days.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  9. #9
    Senior Administrator
    „Friend of Germanics”
    Skadi Funding Member
    Aeternitas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    German
    Gender
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Libertarian
    Religion
    Christian
    Posts
    1,562
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    68
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    571
    Thanked in
    183 Posts
    Parties don't cooperate cause of political differences, internal strife but also cause of personal squabbles.

    In Germany the REP won't cooperate in an alliance with the NPD/DVU cause of their nazi right-wing extremist labels of the latter two, so a merge is out of the question. But in some states the NPD is supported much more prominently than the REP.

    The issue with some of these parties is that some of their policies and ideas sound good on paper, e.g. the BZÖ's, "free from ideology, but forward-looking and conscious of traditional values", and their inspiration from the '48 German Revolution, but integration of non-Europeans isn't a "traditional" value and one doesn't conserve the German language by teaching it to their children. It was shown e.g. in Germany that the influx of immigrants modifies the language itself. In appearance, the SVP in Switzerland, a party that made noise with its opposition to Islamization, would seem to be a good choice for nationalists. However, like many other "conservative" parties, they're pro integration of Muslims. As long as they don't flaunt their minarets, separate cemeteries, traditional dress, etc., they're welcome to stay. Some members even consider it a bonus if they marry Europeans.

    Another issue regarding some "ultra-conservative" parties is that despite wanting referendums for major EU decisions like about the Lisbon Treaty, they support the EU nonetheless and just want a few adjustments.

    Ethnic nationalist parties are having trouble with asserting themselves ideologically as it is, struggling to find a balance between their ideology and the restrictiveness of the EU system which is becoming more and more ridiculous. Adjusting their program even more to compromise together with civic nationalists would basically mean watering down their views.

    Some attempts to cooperate do exist however, though not in the form of mergers, but for example Strache welcomed members of the BZÖ to return to the FPÖ if they didn't like it there.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: Wednesday, January 10th, 2018, 10:51 AM
  2. Nationalist, Pro-Germanic and Conservative Facebook Pages
    By Nachtengel in forum Parties, Organizations, & Activism
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Saturday, May 28th, 2016, 06:12 PM
  3. What's Your Favourite Euro-Nationalist Party?
    By InvaderNat in forum Parties, Organizations, & Activism
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: Tuesday, January 24th, 2012, 05:51 AM
  4. German Euro-Deputy: S&P Downgrade Part of American ‘War Against the Euro’
    By Bittereinder in forum Economics, Business, & Finance
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Thursday, January 19th, 2012, 08:59 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •