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Thread: Blondism or Germanicism / The Varg Vikernes Eye/Hair Colour Controversy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varg Vikernes View Post
    I don't drink beer, so I have noe idea. I wouldn't be surprised if you were right tough. Most of what we have in Soviet-Norway is crap.

    PS. I am a little jealous because of your mountains though. The alps are much higher than the Norwegian mountains.
    All joking aside, are there some good Norwegian beers ?

    I've never tried one, but I like Norway and its culture/people and I'll have to visit there one day while its still populated by Norwegians !!!

    I've been to southern Sweden and Denmark and those areas like all of Scandinavia are going downhill. The red governments have been inviting all of the trash in from the third world.

    This is the red governments punishments to our nations.

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    Mr. Vikernes,

    as a preamble, let me assure you that I very much respect, at times even admire your work as a musician and philosophic author, also and especially its original and unconventional thought about anthropology. There's also no reason for me to criticize your marriage, I congratulate you for finding a beautiful normannic woman to live with and wish you and your family all the best.

    Still, since this discussion has heated up quite a bit and went away from what should be the actual forum topic (that being "music and hymns"), I feel constrained to comment and ask about some of those things you stated here.

    You claim that what one would describe as today's caucasian (or white european) race is actually a mixed breed of african homo sapiens and european homo neanderthalensis. While I believe this thesis to be highly doubtful and not accepted by the scientific mainstream, my knowledge of ancient anthropology is too little to disprove your claim, so I will treat it as given fact.

    You stated further (in case I didn't get you wrong) that your understanding of race is neither the modern definition of white caucasians (which most white nationalists, especially in the United States hold) nor the idea of a germanic race which was predominant in the 19th and the first half of the 20th century and most people on Skadi in some way agrees with, but a mythologically inspired (Jarl, Karl, Thrall) nordicist view which very much relates to certain phenotypical traits: Blonde hair and blue eyes.

    You're describing traits like dark hair and eyes as alien. Alien to what, exactly? As Sigurd already stated, two caucasian, blond and blue eyed parents would be perfectly able to have a brown-eyed, brown-haired caucasian child without any interplay of atypical genetic occurences like mutation. This is, opposed to your theories, a simple scientific fact. How would it be possible that "all ancient europeans were blonde and blue eyed" then?

    I also find it amusing that you refer to Tacitus about this topic, for his writings are anything but a source of scientific facts. As a sidenote, germanic warriors of Tacitus' era were known to bleach their hair light blonde, especially when going to war.

    Further, you said certain norwegian (caucasian) women are "undesirable" (not exclusively) because of their "undesirable" phenotypical traits like dark hair and eyes. It seems to me like you don't talk about personal preferance but about human quality here. You seem to view caucasians with such traits as second class germanics/europeans (keyword: Nachgedunkelte Schrumpfgermanen). For the sake of this discussion I will overlook this crude and arrogant insult of my (and your own) people and instead focus on analyzing and understanding your reasoning. Why would having brown hair or eyes indicate a lower human quality?

    If I get you right, you're derivating this from the idea of homo neanderthalensis being superior to homo sapiens, thus being the "better side" of europe's inhabitants of the last few millennia. Since having light hair and eyes isn't a practical advantage, I guess you're talking about aestetics here. If this would actually be the reason, do you also prefer other Neanderthaler traits like a small, sloping forehead and an extremely muscular build in women, similar to those of men? By the way, ironically enough, those traits remind me less of caucasians but of less advanced races like the negro population of today's africa. I prefer women with long foreheads and slender build, but that's just me.

    Furthermore, even if such traits as dark hair and eyes were originally alien to the european people (which they in fact aren't, because they simply cannot be for reasons stated earlier), how would this affect us today? Everything that defines us as europeans, that sets us apart from the rest of the world, our noble culture, our spirit of innovation, our scientific advance is a phenomenon of the last few millennia, long after your (fictive) large-scaled mix breeding would have started.

    I would be happy if you cared to elaborate, because all I can see right now is a gross insult to many great europeans (me and parts of my family included ) with no base but some pseudo-scientific thesis paired with eddaic mysticism and personal aestetic taste. Maybe not Sigurd (who, by the way, is a highly respected member of this community, even by those who, like me, typically disagree with many of his viewpoints) is the person that should learn some respect, but you: Respect for those "nachgedunkelten Schrumpfgermanen" which were forced to bring up an amount of bravery and self-sacrafice neither you nor I will ever reach. Respect for all the e.g. german, french, italian, greek philosophers, scientists (which weren't all blonde and/or blue eyed) and artists which have shaped european culture and identity.
    "Lever dot as slav."

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    Quote Originally Posted by totenlicht View Post
    You're describing traits like dark hair and eyes as alien. Alien to what, exactly? As Sigurd already stated, two caucasian, blond and blue eyed parents would be perfectly able to have a brown-eyed, brown-haired caucasian child without any interplay of atypical genetic occurences like mutation. This is, opposed to your theories, a simple scientific fact. How would it be possible that "all ancient europeans were blonde and blue eyed" then?
    Actually, it would be impossible for two blue-eyed, blond-haired parents to have a brown-eyed, brown-haired child. But it is possible for two brown-haired, brown-eyed parents to have a blond-hair, blue-eyed child.

    This is because both blond-hair and blue-eyes require a combination of recessive alleles, whereas both brown-hair and brown-eyes are dominant alleles. Of course both eye color and hair color involve separate genes, so for example blue eyes can't "cause" blond hair (or vice versa). Anyway, even if, for instance, a child inherits a blue-eyed gene from one parent, but inherits a brown-eyed gene from the other parent, he WILL end up having brown eyes, yet he still could sire blue-eyed children with the appropriate woman (though this would not be guaranteed).

    I'm pressed for time, so I'm sorry if that doesn't make much sense, but I actually learned about this in 7th grade biology class. We were even given formulas to calculate the odds of the manifestation of certain recessive traits in offspring. Considering how piss-poor our public schools have become over here, in retrospect I'm surprised this was even part of the curriculum. Most have been a vestige from the Madison Grant era or something.

    P.S. Don't confuse anything I said with me advocating the view that brown eyes and hair in Europeans are the result of being tainted with black blood. Many southern Europeans obviously do have some African blood (which has been scientifically proven), but that doesn't mean that ALL Europeans with brown eyes/hair, particularly those from the northern half of Europe (Germanics, Celts, etc.), have negro ancestors. And since I myself have rather Nordic features, I have no vested interest in asserting that brown eyes and hair can be found in racially pure Europeans.

    P.P.S. The science of genetics has made great leaps and bounds since the olden days when I went to school, so what I was taught about hair and eye color might well be outdated. I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the discovery that the earth isn't flat.
    Last edited by Ward; Monday, March 15th, 2010 at 07:30 AM. Reason: addendum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    Actually, it would be impossible for two blue-eyed, blond-haired parents to have a brown-eyed, brown-haired child. But it is possible for two brown-haired, brown-eyed parents to have a blond-hair, blue-eyed child.
    It is possible for two blue eyed parents to have a brown-eyed child, actually. It is just very rare. Multiple traits involved with eye color, not just one. I would say the majority of the time though, two blue eyed parents will have blue eyed children. This may not apply to every group on the planet with a high rate of blue eyes, but it certainly does apply for most blue eyed people. The excluded groups may be in certain areas of the Baltic region and Scandinavia.

    As for blonde hair, you are actually more off with this one. It is more easily possible for two blonde parents to have a darker haired child, but only if they both carry a mixed set of blonde and darker traits themselves. Then any potential child that they may have will randomly be given a mixed combination of these traits (there are multiple genes involved for hair color). More often than not, the children will be blonde, but it is still possible for one to receive a higher number of the darker traits, thus displaying darker active hair. If both parents only really carry light blonde traits though, then they will most likely only have blonde haired children. Once again, certain regions of Scandinavia and the Baltic may have larger populations with mostly lighter traits, thus preserving the lighter hair color more easily.

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    Grin

    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    Actually, it would be impossible for two blue-eyed, blond-haired parents to have a brown-eyed, brown-haired child. But it is possible for two brown-haired, brown-eyed parents to have a blond-hair, blue-eyed child.
    I'm not sure if this is true. I know for a fact that what used to be taught is untrue: namely that there is one gene which controls eye color, and if you have a brown dominant allele it will produce brown eye color. We now know multiple genes all contribute to eye color.

    Wikipedia is a great source guys: "The actual number of genes that contribute to eye color is currently unknown, but there are a few likely candidates. A study in Rotterdam (2009) found that it was possible to predict the color of eyes with more than 90% accuracy for brown and blue, using just six SNPs (from six genes)."

    Now I'm just hypothesizing here, but if eye color is determined by for example 6 genes, and say 4 of these genes are blue-blue (2 recessive alleles therefore blue) and the other 2 genes are BROWN-blue (1 dominant allele therefore brown), what would the color of the eye be? Would it be a darker-toned blue? Or fully brown? Nobody knows for sure. This is why I find science fascinating.

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    As for Varg.. it is very unfortunate that you believe that anyone without blonde hair or blue eyes is of "mixed race," not "European," or not of the "same race" as yourself. I also do not support this whole neanderthal thing, it seems quite outlandish. But I am willing to remain open minded. What I do know is that non-blonde and non-blue traits have always existed within European populations. They have always floated alongside the lighter traits in Northern populations. Blonde haired/blue eyed people did not just appear out of thin air. Mutation first, then propagation through sexual selection. You are also still the descendant of a darker haired/eyed people, ultimately.

    I also doubt that you and many others can positively say that you're fully descended of blonde haired/blue eyed individuals (since trait conception through mutation). I asked this about you and your wife (your wife especially), but no response. Many people with blonde hair and blue eyes have immediate family members who do not have either, or only one or the other. Are people like that also members of your race? "Kin of Jarl?" Some of my own family members match said situation (blonde/blue), yet I for example have medium brown hair with some reddish hue, a lighter red/brown beard, and mostly grey eyes with a bit of green hue, look blueish under direct light. I guess my family is "mixed race" and not of true European descent though, not of your race.

    With all of that said, I am the last person to be against the preservation of blonde hair and blue eye traits. The most efficient way of doing so would be with two blonde haired/blue eyed parents having children together. Can others who carry said traits, but do not actually have them active on themselves, also have blonde/blue children? Of course, but it is not the most efficient way. I am only speaking "overall," by the way. On an individual/pair basis, matching up hair and eye color is not of a lot of importance to me, but on the grand scale/big picture, it would be preferable that others try to match (for preservations sake). Anyway, as I was saying, I am all for the preservation of these traits, but what I am against is implying that those without said traits are "not white", "not European," or of "mixed race," "mixed with Africans," or whatever else. That is nonsense.

    And not to be a stickler, but the hair on your head doesn't exactly seem hardcore blonde to me, my friend. Unless you were darkening it slightly. Your beard seems quite blonde though, which is not uncommon as that differential in lightness often exists (it does on myself). That is if I'm actually speaking to the real Varg Vikernes anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    Actually, it would be impossible for two blue-eyed, blond-haired parents to have a brown-eyed, brown-haired child.
    It would be impossible for two homozygously blonde/blue people. Since recessive homozygosity is relatively rare (less than 2% even in most "routinely blonde" countries, certainly under 10% in all such countries), it requires (homozygously) white-blonde hair and clear-blue eyes for several generations, a single heterozygously white-blonde ancestor (and thus ultimately perhaps a dark-blonde ancestor somewhere) could already change this, and the chance of "multiplication" of the trait over generations is reasonably high.

    Most people with light pigment are heterozygously so, and surely if they are dark-blonde (some dominant alleles already in dark blonde, no homozygosity) they have a good chance of having brown/brown offspring if the sum of their genetic alleles is capable of becoming dominant and thus producing a brown/brown child. Thus, Mr. Vikernes for instance would already be disqualified from this level of racial purity as per having dark-blonde hair.

    Heterozygosity/Homozygosity is impossible to view in phenotype, so even a white-blonde/clear-blue man looking out for a white-blonde/clear-blue girl doesn't mean that both have the exact same genetic background. It may be so in "primary genetics", but in terms of "secondary genetics" it certainly isn't so.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    It would be impossible for two homozygously blonde/blue people.
    Exactly. This is of course following the scientific assumption that eye/hair color is determined only by genetics and that environmental factors play absolutely no role. How true that is can be debated as babies and toddlers can have their eye color change throughout their first 3 years of life.

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    Exactly. This is of course following the scientific assumption that eye/hair color is determined only by genetics and that environmental factors play absolutely no role. How true that is can be debated as babies and toddlers can have their eye color change throughout their first 3 years of life.
    Eye pigmentation depends on the production of melanine. In caucasian infants, melanine production stays low until they get older, that's why all germanic (celtic, slavic and so forth) infants have blue eyes at birth. As they grow older, the production of melanine may increase and their eyes may darken and thus become green, amber, hazel or brown.

    It is known that eye colour can change at later stages in life, too and go from dark to light. This is a phenomenon almost exclusively observed in humans of caucasian background and to my knowledge it is unknown whether this would be a defective lack of melanine production caused by external influences or a genetically predetermined process.

    For an example, in her youth, my maternal grandmother had the same eye color as I have today: A brown iris with a thin grey ring around it. However, as she became older, the brown "core" became smaller and smaller until her eyes had the grey-green color with brown spots they have today. I too notice that kind of change in my eyes, so that would be speaking for a genetical determination.
    "Lever dot as slav."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Einarr View Post
    Mutation first, then propagation through sexual selection. You are also still the descendant of a darker haired/eyed people, ultimately.
    >90% of caucasian babies are born with blue eyes.

    Someone who has blue eyes and blond hairs by the adult time will never show signs of dark hair and dark eyes, yet people who are brown haired and brown eyed are usually born with blue eyes and a light shade of hairs.

    A negroid baby who did not receive any influx of caucasoid genes, will be born with skin and eyes as black as night and keep them throughout his life, while a brown eyed and brown haired Euro-Caucasoid will be born with very light features such as blueish eyes and light strain of hairs. The amount of pigmentation that turns a Euro-Caucasoid person unto a dark complexed person is so alien to the Euro-Caucasoid races that it fails to blend successfully with the Euro-Caucasoid races, it is so small and therefore not strong enough to take over and henceforth can only attack the light features through parasitivism during a sort of ethnogenesis process that takes place during the aging of a person.

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