View Poll Results: Is anti-Americanism justified?

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Thread: Is Anti-Americanism Justified?

  1. #1001
    Senior Member RoyBatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    The current wars are being fought with an all-volunteer armed forces (with apparently a good number of enlisted foreigners ), are thousands of miles away & are being paid for with borrowed money from China. For most Americans the current wars do not affect them personally.

    PS: Why I find US policy in making China a dominant economic power very stupid I am also perplex by China's financing of American military domination of Middle Eastern & Asian oil reserves.
    It's basically a case of China giving the US enough rope to hang itself. As far as I can determine from all the disinformation out there the expectation amongst the Chinese appears to be that the US is living beyond its means (another complex topic and discussion) and of course, in doing so the US is making itself increasingly reliant on Chinese imports (which is exactly what they want).

    The end result is that the US's industrial and technological base is being eroded in favour of that of China.

    By sustaining the current Paper Dollar based (in effect a worthless commodity) Global Economy, China benefits by growing its economy and industrialising on a much larger and faster scale than they could have done had countries such as the US only been able to pay with resources within its economic means. China is the major beneficiary of US over-borrowing and over-spending. (Much of that borrowing again being the worthless paper Dollars held by the Chinese).

    The US exchanges a worthless commodity to the Chinese, who build up mountains of reserves of this worthless commodity to lend back to the US, which then again spends mountains more of this worthless commodity in China, thereby exciting growth and expansion in China's Economy and Industry.

    Both the USA and the Chinese love this paper system and the Chinese will take advantage of this situation for as long as it lasts while they train up legions of engineers, technical specialists, build 100 000's factories, effectively shut down much of the industrial capacity of countries elsewhere and so forth.

    By the time this vicious cycle unravels China would have invested much of this cash in acquiring foreign properties, land, mines, factories, businesses, shopping centers and so forth and the US will be saddled with a massive debt-headache, fallen behind in science and seen its industries gutted.

    The US has a few things going for it though. It occupies most of Europe. It occupies most of the Middle East's energy producing regions. It is increasingly occupying Africa. Through this system of military and corporate occupation (is there a difference?) they effectively obtain control over vast reserves of valuable commodities such as energy, minerals, markets etc.

    The Chinese are attempting to do the same, mostly through cutting deals as opposed to the Western way of using Military Invasions. The Chinese are at somewhat of a disadvantage wrt control over energy resources, compared to the Westerners.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    It's basically a case of China giving the US enough rope to hang itself.
    Which is exactly what US paleconservatives like Pat Buchanan have been saying all along but it's more expedient simply to take out a loan from the chinks to prop the bankrupt American democrazy up than to actually fix the system with across-the-board spending cuts, immigration laws, and so on.

    It's a fixture of Chinese military thinking (from the Art of War) to let their enemies defeat themselves, to help their enemies indulge in their weaknesses under false friendship, and so on. The Chinese are truly a devious lot and the fact that this isn't being taken seriously is, ahem, well... Meh I don't even care but imagine a situation in which Rome borrows from Carthage to finance itself.

    At this point the average moronic US voter think that a simple change in executive administration will change things.

    "Oooo Romney will save the day!"

    But, as I've said before Romney is the carrot (soft approach) and Obama is the stick (hard approach). The end result will be the same IMO.

  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    That was Clinton's doing, and the first he did as president was to give China status as most favored nation. And if you look into his history you will find that he was backed by Indonesian businessmen and banks of Chinese nationality, and that means the Government of the Peoples' Republic of China. There was an article about this in TIME Magazine 15 years ago or so.
    I recall a scandal (one of many during the Clinton Era) of a Chinese business man in Little Rock who was involved in influence peddling with the Clintons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    And why would it not be in China's interest to have the US run rampage through the world if it believed that this position was not stable in the long term? If they do not believe that the US will be able to maintain this position, all that it will have accomplished to to have removed entrenched powers that the Chinese themselves would have had to battle with later. Some historians say that Gustav Vasa was able to grab and hold on to the Swedish throne simply because his Danish rival Kristian had executed large parts of the politically active nobility in Stockholm's Bloodbath just before. So maybe China (and Russia) sees the US as its Kristian?

    Also, the recent US escapades in the Middle East has gained the Chinese friends and clients all over the place, especially in resource rich parts of Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    It's basically a case of China giving the US enough rope to hang itself. As far as I can determine from all the disinformation out there the expectation amongst the Chinese appears to be that the US is living beyond its means (another complex topic and discussion) and of course, in doing so the US is making itself increasingly reliant on Chinese imports (which is exactly what they want).
    The problem is that China's economic miracle is still dependent on American consumers. And America could default on the debt (or hyperinflate it away). And the US Navy is still capable of cutting off raw resources, like oil, to China. China still doesn't have the capacity to retake Taiwan. The Chinese have historically always come out on the short end in their dealings with foreigners.

    Quote Originally Posted by keule View Post
    And what about "Manifest Destiny"?

    I would like to know, which US-citizen here in this forum is believing in this "Manifest Destiny"?
    I believe in Manifest Destiny. You must remember that in the early 19th century most of North America, north of the Valley of Mexico & east of the Appalachians, was sparcely populated, with only Indians who were still in the hunter/gather stage of social developement. To have not taken the initiative in the conquest of the continent would have been turning our backs on the greatest opportunity ever to present itself to a nation. I also believe Manifest Destiny stopped at the Pacific & extended only between the 49 parallel & the Mexico border from San Diego to Brownsville. We did not annexed the populated parts of Mexico or even the sparcely populated (by Mexican citizens, including pacified Indians) regions of what is now Northern Mexico. What we took was essentially the hunting grounds of the Utes, Navajos, Comanches & Apaches, who never acknowledged Spanish or Mexican authority. The total number of Mexican citizens who passed to the US was 75-80 thousand. mostly in the Rio Grande Valley & that included a sizable number of Pueblo Indians who were considered Mexican subjects.

  4. #1004
    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    The US and China have a very complex relationship, from what I've read about it. It seems that economy and trade is what decides their relationship, not actual power politics. It's not like the Cold War, because both countries seem to be wary of angering each other in any way.

    I read this very interesting post on another forum, about the US-China relationship, and I decided to post it here:

    America won't be going to war with China, not for a long time. They're just too economically inter-dependent at the moment. The cult of capitalism and "free trade" has created a sick symbiotic relationship.

    China isn't a second Soviet Union, politically. What killed the Soviet Union was that they tried to salvage the command economy (a dysfunctional economic model) while also "liberalising" their one-party state. The Chinese took notice of this, and decided they couldn't save their Communist state while following the same course, so they preserved Communism as a political doctrine while becoming ultra-capitalists in practice. China is now an authoritarian capitalist state.

    Do you remember how the first ipods were recalled when they hit the market? Steve Jobs wanted a new screen on the things, because the originally manufactured one was frail and got scratched up whenever put in a pocket. So, Apple sent out bids and no American company could produce the new ipods on schedule. The Chinese Politburo then stepped in, and took it upon itself to build a factory within days and arrested a few villages to be put to work. The new ipods were finished ahead of schedule.

    Jobs and his fellow greasy free-trader c***s then smugly sneered that American workers aren't "competitive" enough to match Chinese slave labour.

    In essence, the capitalist utopia is a Chinese slave farm where no one's "creative vision" is disturbed by annoying things like actually paying your workers a decent white man's wage, or not polluting areas where people work and live.

    America loves Communism - it's ideal for this consumerist culture and free-trade world in a lot of ways. What it didn't like was Stalinist expansionism and militarism, which captured foreign markets and cut them off.

  5. #1005
    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly industrial output grew on average eleven percent per year under Mao's reign, but this was not noticed as much since it began at a so low level. My interpretation is that the Chinese opened up their economy and turned to Western consumers and companies because they did not have what it took to make the leap into high-tech and semiconductors on their own. Manufacturing iPods for the Western masses has also made the Western companies share their technology and know-how with them.

    Another interesting thing that Clinton did:

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/12...e-theft-caper/

    So without China the US defense industry and military will grind to a halt very quickly as it will run out of essential components.

  6. #1006
    Senior Member RoyBatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    The problem is that China's economic miracle is still dependent on American consumers. And America could default on the debt (or hyperinflate it away).
    It is dependent on American as well as other consumers. However, the American consumer is now also dependent on the Chinese (like the Chinese is dependent on them) because the American consumer cannot hope to consume at their ever increasing rates without Chinese connivance. The USA uses China to obtain more goods at lower prices whilst paying in paper and China uses the US to build up its economy and industry using US paper.

    The US is "paying" for goods with money that it doesn't have while the Chinese accept this fantasy currency to industrialise and obtain foreign assets. Once the system crashes the Chinese would have positioned themselves to still have a strong economy, they'll still be industrialised, they'll still have the expertise and facilities to serve as the world's factory and they'll have the technological ability to at least match anybody else.

    And the US Navy is still capable of cutting off raw resources, like oil, to China.
    Hard to say, there's no way of measuring something like this. China is not a Libya or Syria or Iraq. The US undoubtedly has a better Navy atm but there's no way of telling just how effective it would be against a real opponent as opposed to sandniggers and the usual 3d World fare. I'm not convinced that a Navy would hold up against a determined assault via land based missiles and planes, particularly not when the opponent can throw numbers at the targets.

    Unless something goes dramatically wrong the one with the heavy industry, more favourable geography and numbers will win a shootout.

    China still doesn't have the capacity to retake Taiwan.
    For all their sabre rattling, they don't need to. China and Taiwans business and corporate interests are so interwoven that there's little need. At worst Taiwan is an annoyance. If they really, really wanted to take Taiwan, I'm sure they could. All they'd have to do would be to flatten it with a missile barrage and mop up whatever remains.

    The Chinese have historically always come out on the short end in their dealings with foreigners.
    That was then, this is now.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    That was then, this is now.
    The chinks might overplay their hand at some point. There're plenty of wildcard situations to be considered, such as with the Russians. What'll happen if, say, the US is overtaken by the PRC as the world's sole superpower? Russia has a long border with China; the two nations haven't always had friendly relations. IMO the main thing keeping them buddy & buddy is the US. If the US isn't an issue any longer what then?

    China is a particular favorite to be the next global superpower but this assumes that the US will go quietly into the night. Assuming China does achieve this position, the US and Russia could (again) develop close relations. Who knows; geopolitics makes for strange bedfellows.

  8. #1008
    Senior Member RoyBatty's Avatar
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    Russia is hardly relevant nowadays and its plutocracy is increasingly poisoned by the Jew, the same as is the case in the USA. Russians (Slavs) are being increasingly marginalised (by the authorities, Medvedev in particular) in favour of Central Asian trash, Jews and Caucasus blackasses.

    Russia's eastern parts are seeing a Chinese invasion along the lines of what the Mexicans are doing throughout the USA.

    Russia certainly isn't toothless but if one considers the number of Western assaults being waged against it through

    - Jewish liberalism,
    - Western sponsoring of Chechen and other minority insurrections,
    - Western poisoning of relations with neighbouring countries through their proxy regimes,
    - Western attacks and invasions against Soviet / Russian allies

    while Russia does nothing to at least reciprocate in kind.... one gets the impression that they're not really willing to fight back atm.
    ~ **** Democracy! It's 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding what's for dinner.

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    Russia is hardly relevant nowadays
    Russia still has 1 of the 2 largest nuclear arsenals in the world. That gives it some relevance. Not to mention much of Europe is dependent on Russian oil & gas.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    The chinks might overplay their hand at some point. There're plenty of wildcard situations to be considered, such as with the Russians. What'll happen if, say, the US is overtaken by the PRC as the world's sole superpower? Russia has a long border with China; the two nations haven't always had friendly relations. IMO the main thing keeping them buddy & buddy is the US. If the US isn't an issue any longer what then?

    China is a particular favorite to be the next global superpower but this assumes that the US will go quietly into the night. Assuming China does achieve this position, the US and Russia could (again) develop close relations. Who knows; geopolitics makes for strange bedfellows.
    My guess is that Russia would increasingly turn towards the world and seek both economic and technical assistance as well as trying to bolster other powers to check China. It would thus turn to the EU and exchange its natural resources for modern technology and industrial products as well as deepen its cooperation with India (they are already co-developing military technology). India and China are not t-h-a-t friendly. It would probably also seek closer ties with Japan (on similar terms as with the EU, Russia has oil and gas and Japan needs that) and Vietnam (it's old friend from the 60's and not the most pro-China country). Most certainly to Indonesia (always wary about Chinese influence) and probably the Philippines.

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