View Poll Results: Is anti-Americanism justified?

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Thread: Is Anti-Americanism Justified?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I speak from personal experience with Americans, it seems they enjoy talking about how great they are more than talking about the weather. It also appears you agree with me. I did put a qualifier in there you know.
    I actually much prefer talking about the weather.

    It's considerably more interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vordringende View Post
    It's still the same old same old collective guilt-trip for things that happened decades ago. And pretending that Americans and Australians always behaved honourably just because they're our ethnic brethren is far from a subjective intelligent view of what is a complex subject. They didn't. I find it interesting I find it more than a little ironic given the purpose of this forum that your answer to anti-Americanism is to insult Germans... when US popular culture is poisoning the world when the way they insist on enforcing their personal interpretation of democratic principles and politics around the world is irreconcilable with the preservation of national and racial sovereignty of Europeans and when fundamentalists as much as degenerates in that country are facilitating its decline it seems far from sensible to think it's senseless or insensitive to simply voice these concerns don't you think?
    I am not insulting any Germans....I was merely pointing out that when Germany and the US took up arms against each other the last time, it was preferable for German Soldiers to be captured by the US (western allies too) than by the Russians. Being that the anti-american propoganda during the war was quite prevelent I find it surprising is all. I am sure American troops preferred capture by German soldiers vs Imperial Japanese too.

    When it comes to the JAPanese the last time I looked it was them that conducted the Battaan Death march not vice versa. So, no I am not a fan of anything asian....

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    Americanism (n.): a custom, linguistic usage, or other feature peculiar to or characteristic of the United States, its people, or their culture

    Why is anyone going to be anti- the American people or their culture? They're Germanics too, anyway.

    I find the opening line of the wikipedia article to be rather disparaging...
    The term anti-Americanism, or anti-American sentiment, refers to opposition or hostility to the policies, so called "culture", economics or international role of the United States.
    If only you knew how bad things really are

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    I'm not "anti-the-american-people", but I am very hostile to what the American state and its mass society has become, and America's political behaviour around the globe. As it is today, the American state (and the forces that are controlling it) is one of the greatest threats against national sovereignty and preservation.

    But I'm not blaming the usual American individual for this. I also quite like the saying of the French New Right that "America is strong because Europe is weak". It is just as much our own fault that America has obtained this too powerful position in world politics.
    "Man evolved in cooperating groups united by common cultural and genetic ties, and it is only in such a setting that the individual can feel truly free, and truly protected. Men cannot live happily alone and without values or any sense of identity…" - Alain de Benoist
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    Cool Is Anti-Americanism Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe McCarthy View Post
    I'm interested in arguments for and against.
    One of the problems with a question like this is that one has to define what "Americanism" is first. This isn't so easy. In fact, I would venture to suggest it's virtually impossible. The impression that Europeans get varies with who they see as being the establishment elite in the United States, to what degree they are truly representative of what Americanism is and which cultural fads or socio-political or socio-economic spin they seem to be promoting this month or year. One thing is for sure. The manufactured cultural winds in the US change far faster than they do in Europe. I hope we can at least agree on that.

    Additionally, it depends greatly on who the infotainment or "disinfotainment" elite in the countries of Europe are, if we are talking European Anti-Americanism, for example. In other words any judgment of this type doesn't happen in a vacuum and it must be weighed against the interests and sensibilities of a particular nation and/or people.

    There is another problem. America is not a culturally monolithic and homogeneous nation. Like it or not, America is a multicultural and multi-ethnic empire. In her history she has defeated and subjugated Amerindians, Pacific Islanders, Hispanic populations and not to forget African slaves among others. Obviously, for better or worse, this reality is in the process of being "undone" but that doesn't make it any less true.

    This begs the question though, which America does one object to, because painting the entire conglomeration of peoples and their distinct ethno-cultures with the same broad brush is hardly fair. One has to then also ask: Is the current American establishment a realistic reflection of who the American people are or want to be? Which ethno-cultural interest group does the American elite and disinfotainment media and financial elite favor or most accurately reflect? Which interests are in the drivers seat and to what extent are the American people as a whole aware of it?

    I guess, it's important to ask another question. What don't you like about America or Americanism? We can then perhaps more specifically ask ourselves how fair such criticisms are and to whom in America they they most accurately apply. Perhaps that would be a fairer way of approaching the issue.

    Sure, as a EuroAmerican of Germanic and Christian heritage, my values pretty much follow those of the majority of EuroAmericans who are at least culturally Christian. What I've learned, is that what I hold most dear are values not held by non EuroAmericans, be they Christian or otherwise, in the same way.

    If I say I believe in Free Speech, ... others will say only if it's politically correct.

    If I say I believe in individual liberty ... others will say only its limited to ensure mandated equality of results.

    If I say I believe in the primacy of individual responsibility ... others will say that to each according to his need from each according to his ability is more important.

    I can go on and on.

    Which America don't you like? Which Americanisms do you reject? Is there even such a thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodericus View Post
    I find the opening line of the wikipedia article to be rather disparaging...
    Well, at least after WW2 Americans showed little understanding for culture, which is evident in how ambitiously they tried to ridicule or destroy it in the beaten countries (Japan and Germany).
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Konrad Schreiber View Post
    Sure, as a EuroAmerican of Germanic and Christian heritage, my values pretty much follow those of the majority of EuroAmericans who are at least culturally Christian. What I've learned, is that what I hold most dear are values not held by non EuroAmericans, be they Christian or otherwise, in the same way.

    Having lived in the Americas for a few years, I found it very interesting that I seemed to have much more in common with non EuroAmericans (if you exclude the Hispanics with this term), or rather saying, non-Germanics, preferably being raised outside of the States.

    Wikipedia puts it very rightly, in my opinion, to speak of a "so called" culture. As you point out, talking about Americanism as a culture is begging the question, as we can hardly assert that a flatly American culture even exists. As I see it, it does not. And certainly not in a manner that could be compared to classical European culture, putting aside the Westernization and equalization in the last decades which slowly but surely seems to make the old Continent resemble its new counterpart more every single day.



    If I say I believe in Free Speech, ... others will say only if it's politically correct.

    If I say I believe in individual liberty ... others will say only its limited to ensure mandated equality of results.

    If I say I believe in the primacy of individual responsibility ... others will say that to each according to his need from each according to his ability is more important.

    I can go on and on.

    Which America don't you like? Which Americanisms do you reject? Is there even such a thing?

    Well, let`s just start here. I don´t believe in anything on the left column. But we might play the same game again: What is European culture, Europeanism? If you speak of a post-1789 Europe, these left sided (though maybe not leftist ) opinions might be more and more close to some European ideas and ideologies.
    If we speak of a Europe not infected by English Parlamentarianism, personal freedom etc...then it is an entirely different story.

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    Smile Is Anti-Americanism Justified?

    You wrote:
    ------
    "Having lived in the Americas for a few years, I found it very interesting that I seemed to have much more in common with non EuroAmericans (if you exclude the Hispanics with this term), or rather saying, non-Germanics, preferably being raised outside of the States."
    -------
    I find this curious. I know Europeans and even Germanic Europeans are far more Socialist than EuroAmericans are. (Hispanics in America for the most part are around 3/4 Amerindian. Don't confuse them with IberianAmericans who are counted among EuroAmericans) I guess one of the main problems I have with socialism is that EuroAmericans generally have a very tenuous hold on their culture and socialism inevitably weakens that hold even more. Additionally, socialism is either used as a kind of safety net (which is a noble thought) or it's abused and exploited and therefore all too often has a very corrupting influence on family and other societal institutions. In a multicultural society, socialism is exploited and abused differently and to different degrees by each ethnic group. Unfortunately entitlements become a political football where one group cries victim and by so doing actually demands compensation in the form of entitlements that socialism offers. It becomes a tool for wealth redistribution and more insidiously a way to transfer wealth from one group to another. Entitlements become a way of life that replaces traditional family cohesiveness and precipitates a cycle of dependency that is enormously damaging in the longer term for anyone it touches. Additionally, in America for example, the financial burden for the socialist entitlement programs are not equitably shared or distributed. This inevitably fosters considerable resentment and friction between ethnic groups. Not a good thing. It also breaks that all important relationship between behavior and consequence. Socialism inevitably and excessively rewards poor decisions and lack of productivity rather than discourages it. In the longer term, as history has proven time an time again, socialism cannot sustain itself and collapses under it's own weight. (DDR)

    Something that I find curious though. You say that you have more in common with non-EuroAmericans than EuroAmericans to which Germanic-Americans are of course counted. Non-EuroAericans are overwhelmingly from collectivist cultures. They do not believe in individual liberty and responsibility. For them its a group issue. Is it good for the group or not? ... and only their leadership knows for sure. They also overwhelmingly defer to their religious, cultural or financial hierarchy for instructions as to how to vote behave as a block. This is unlike EuroAmericans, who generally speaking are much more inclined to individually carry the responsibility of citizenship and everything else that concerns them on their own shoulders. They are independent and self-reliant. This means, for better or worse, they take it upon themselves to inform themselves and make choices based on the unconditional dictates of their consciences and what they understand to be right and good. They want to be rewarded for good deeds and/or decisions and be punished for bad deeds and/or decisions. Nothing else is just as they see it. They believe that collective responsibility is not only unjust but corrupting for it puts them on a fast track towards tyrannical dictatorship. They believe that true responsibility for wrong doing, for example, can only come from individuals making individual choices made out of their own enlightened self-interest. Collectivism undermines individual responsibility and therefore also individual liberty and substitutes collective interest for self-interest. This of course gives them virtually no control over their own lives and familial destiny. The state and it's leadership elite are acknowledged to know better what is good for it's flock than they do. They are convinced to willingly sacrifice themselves for the collective good or whatever they are told that the collective good is. They must be subservient to the state.

    Conversely, EuroAmerican individualism relegates the State to a subservient status vis-a-vis the people. This btw is where the notion of individual gun ownership comes in. The state is beholding to a well armed citizenry. It should never be the other way around. Collectivism's elite manipulates its citizens into doing its bidding for good or ill. When disaster strikes blame is handed our indiscriminately and the many are punished for the crimes of the few. When times are good the few enrich themselves at the expense of the many. (That's just human nature when power is that absolute) Collectivism places no checks on the power of it's leadership class.

    So have you really declared yourself to be a collectivist? Do you really defer all that you are to your betters, i.e. your group hierarchy? Doesn't sound very Germanic to me. And as far as German or Prussian is concerned "erst recht nicht." (even less so).

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    I took the "so called 'culture'" phrase from the Wiki article as referring to the disconnect between the alleged "American culture" perceived by anti-Americanists and genuine American, or regional American, culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Well, at least after WW2 Americans showed little understanding for culture, which is evident in how ambitiously they tried to ridicule or destroy it in the beaten countries (Japan and Germany).
    So you would characterize Germans as showing little understanding for culture on account of how Nazi Germany tried to ridicule and destroy it in the Jews? I wouldn't, but if we're going to apply the same logic...

    Either way, I think you've proven that anti-Americanism is more than a dislike of US elites, seeing how you've just conflated the American people with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I speak from personal experience with Americans, it seems they enjoy talking about how great they are more than talking about the weather.
    Do we really, though? I know for a fact that a tirade among my peers on how awful our country is would be received with overwhelming affirmation and nodding of heads, while any mention of American superiority would elicit a scowl and the suggestion for the perpetrator to move to Alabama and listen to "America, F*** Yeah" some more. Ironically, I more frequently come across arrogance in Europeans than I do in Americans. Maybe it's more of a preemptive strike against the American arrogance stereotype than anything else, but some Europeans really do try their best to portray how superior they are to us.


    I understand anti-American arguments on traditionalist grounds, but sometimes the anti-American propaganda is just too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Konrad Schreiber View Post
    I find this curious. I know Europeans and even Germanic Europeans are far more Socialist than EuroAmericans are. (Hispanics in America for the most part are around 3/4 Amerindian. Don't confuse them with IberianAmericans who are counted among EuroAmericans) I guess one of the main problems I have with socialism is that EuroAmericans generally have a very tenuous hold on their culture and socialism inevitably weakens that hold even more. Additionally, socialism is either used as a kind of safety net (which is a noble thought) or it's abused and exploited and therefore all too often has a very corrupting influence on family and other societal institutions. In a multicultural society, socialism is exploited and abused differently and to different degrees by each ethnic group. Unfortunately entitlements become a political football where one group cries victim and by so doing actually demands compensation in the form of entitlements that socialism offers. It becomes a tool for wealth redistribution and more insidiously a way to transfer wealth from one group to another. Entitlements become a way of life that replaces traditional family cohesiveness and precipitates a cycle of dependency that is enormously damaging in the longer term for anyone it touches. Additionally, in America for example, the financial burden for the socialist entitlement programs are not equitably shared or distributed. This inevitably fosters considerable resentment and friction between ethnic groups. Not a good thing. It also breaks that all important relationship between behavior and consequence. Socialism inevitably and excessively rewards poor decisions and lack of productivity rather than discourages it. In the longer term, as history has proven time an time again, socialism cannot sustain itself and collapses under it's own weight. (DDR)

    Of course, I do not speak of nor support a Marxist socialism, even less modern social-liberlism found in most western countries. Still, I believe that Marxism-Leninism was much more culturally preservative than American Capitalism/Liberalism.
    A socialist system cannot be an end in itself, nor can it stand alone in a society as we have it today.


    Something that I find curious though. You say that you have more in common with non-EuroAmericans than EuroAmericans to which Germanic-Americans are of course counted. Non-EuroAericans are overwhelmingly from collectivist cultures. They do not believe in individual liberty and responsibility. For them its a group issue. Is it good for the group or not? ... and only their leadership knows for sure. They also overwhelmingly defer to their religious, cultural or financial hierarchy for instructions as to how to vote behave as a block. This is unlike EuroAmericans, who generally speaking are much more inclined to individually carry the responsibility of citizenship and everything else that concerns them on their own shoulders. They are independent and self-reliant. This means, for better or worse, they take it upon themselves to inform themselves and make choices based on the unconditional dictates of their consciences and what they understand to be right and good. They want to be rewarded for good deeds and/or decisions and be punished for bad deeds and/or decisions. Nothing else is just as they see it. They believe that collective responsibility is not only unjust but corrupting for it puts them on a fast track towards tyrannical dictatorship. They believe that true responsibility for wrong doing, for example, can only come from individuals making individual choices made out of their own enlightened self-interest. Collectivism undermines individual responsibility and therefore also individual liberty and substitutes collective interest for self-interest. This of course gives them virtually no control over their own lives and familial destiny. The state and it's leadership elite are acknowledged to know better what is good for it's flock than they do. They are convinced to willingly sacrifice themselves for the collective good or whatever they are told that the collective good is. They must be subservient to the state.

    Conversely, EuroAmerican individualism relegates the State to a subservient status vis-a-vis the people. This btw is where the notion of individual gun ownership comes in. The state is beholding to a well armed citizenry. It should never be the other way around. Collectivism's elite manipulates its citizens into doing its bidding for good or ill. When disaster strikes blame is handed our indiscriminately and the many are punished for the crimes of the few. When times are good the few enrich themselves at the expense of the many. (That's just human nature when power is that absolute) Collectivism places no checks on the power of it's leadership class.

    So have you really declared yourself to be a collectivist? Do you really defer all that you are to your betters, i.e. your group hierarchy? Doesn't sound very Germanic to me. And as far as German or Prussian is concerned "erst recht nicht." (even less so).

    Indeed, I declare myself to be a collectivist. For this reason, we will have a hard time to find common ground. And you might very well be right in saying that this attitude is the reason for me feeling somewhat closer to non-EuroAmericans.
    My opinion applies to the principle. At the moment, because of the lack of a true German hierarchy, I cannot obey. Just as the right of gun ownership, e.g. In principle, I do reject it, as the force of arms is a prerogative of the state and sovereign. Accidentally, as the current hierarchy loses it's rights by not willing to ensure the wellbeing of it's subjects (a principle of classical philosophy), I do concede ownership of arms, though not as a right intrinsic to human beings.

    Certainly, we cannot overly simplify whats European or American, Germanic or Latin, for example. In distinctione salus


    To serve - this is the old-Prussian way, related to the old-Spanish, which also forged a nation in knightly struggle against the heathens. Not an "I", but a "We", community spirit, in which each single one is realized with his whole being. The individual does not matter, he has to sacrifice himself for the whole. Nobody stands for himself, but everyone for everyone with this inner freedom in a greater sense, the libertas oboedientiae, freedom of obedience, which always distinguished the best specimen of Prussian rearing ("Zucht", also discipline). The Prussian army, the Prussian bureaucracy, Bebel's workmen - these are products of this thought of discipline/rearing.

    ...

    English instinct decided: Power belongs to the individual. Free struggle of one against the other, triumph of the strong: Liberalism, inequality.
    The German, better, Prussian instinct was: Power belongs to the whole. The individual serves him. The King is only the first servant of his state (Frederic the Great). Everyone receives his place. It is commanded and obeyed.

    Oswald Spengler, Preußentum und Sozialismus, Munich 1919

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