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Thread: East Prussians

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Cletus View Post
    I will re-state and re-phrase the statement. You all need to understand that the original and true Prussians were NOT Germanic but BALTIC. In fact, it can be argued that many of these Prussians that you all speak of are just Germanized Balts who lost their cultural identification through colonization before and after the fall of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, many resemble the Baltic and Aistin 'sub-races'. If you can even use such a term.
    No, my Prussian ancestors were Germans. Period. The Prussians that we talk about were a distinct German people, and the conquered Slavs that occupied the land for several centuries were never "true" Prussians and are of no consequence. They are, at best, an interesting historical footnote.

  2. #22
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    What are you talking about? Slavs are NOT Balts. Pardon me if I sound provocative, but perhaps you did not know such a group existed or you just lapse the two together out of ignorance. Along with Finnic peoples, Baltic peoples have lived in this region for millennia. I'm talking about history that took place long BEFORE the 20th century and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

    I don't necessarily question your individual family's ancestors, but I would not be surprised if what I stated earlier holds firm to an extent.

    What we have come to know about the Prussians who emerged later in history for in terms of culture and mannerisms is arguably "Germanic" or has come to define a sort of cultural amalgamation that is German, that goes without question. However, I am arguing that the original people who did possess the name Prussian or Prūsai were a Baltic people, and those people inhabited that region long before the Germans came and colonized it.

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    Nope. That's what I'm talking about. They're not significant, nothing better than a footnote in history. When one talks about Prussian, what one is referring to is the people that arose out of the German colonists. These are the only "real" Prussians.

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    Your arrogance is very prevalent and a bit disturbing. If these Baltic people did not exist then the Germans who colonized that area would have not adopted that name. And it truly is unfortunate that when a person, who isn't so well read or is just ignorant, does think of the Prussians he or she thinks of the Germans. Then again, just because certain aspects of history are not well-known does not mean they should not merit importance. If anything, these facets could be used to re-construct missing aspects of history and chronology thereby making unknown history even more important.

    The Prūsai are much more than a footnote in history, so much that they staged an uprising and later tribes related to them screwed over the Teutonic Order in a number of battles including Saulė (present day Šiauliai). In the end, this all culminated in the complete dismemberment of the invading Teutonic Order through the slaughtering of its leadership in the Battle of Žalgiris by Lithuanians, Poles, Romanians, Tatars and others. The main Teutonic force although superior in arms and equipment was nonetheless overwhelmed and destroyed. Your pure and "holy" Teutonic Order was smashed not only by a force of Christians, but also Pagans and Muslims, a very mixed force. The order was never to be the same again.

    Herkus Mantas

    A historical drama about the 13th century Prussian uprising against the German Knights of the Cross. The film is notable for the romantic approach and the admirable reflection on the tragedy of the Prussian people and the historical events that followed. It is a memorial to the original but now extinct Prussians, a nation whose language and culture was closely related to Lithuanians. Lithuania, 1972, directed by Marijonas Giedrys. B&W, 136 minutes, Lithuanian dialogue.

    Check out this film as it attests to the fact that the Prūsai were much more than a footnote in history.

    Perhaps we're de-railing this thread now, so maybe we should reconsider where the discussion is going.

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    It's only the truth. Call it arrogant, or whatever you will, it's still simply the truth. The only "real" Prussians were Germans. Why you're trying to argue otherwise is a little puzzling. What's your real purpose here?

    BTW, a belated congratulations on getting your first "Thanks" vote. 200+ posts and that was your first one. Interesting!

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    If we're just arguing over the etymology and name here you have a fallacy on your hands. The name Prūsai and the people associated with it were Baltic. If these people had never existed the Germans would have never attributed it to themselves as a name or to a territory.

    You can insult me as much as you want, as it doesn't diminish me as a person. I haven't logged on this forum for years up until this point, not to mention I haven't posted in years. And as you can imagine, I have no idea as to when the voting system was implemented. Anyways, you don't have to worry about me hanging around or about too much here. I'm not compatible with the orientation and in addition it does not interest me too greatly.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    When one talks about Prussian, what one is referring to is the people that arose out of the German colonists. These are the only "real" Prussians.
    When the colonists came, these people didn't simply vanish into thin air. Many people in the countryside still spoke the language for several centuries, the idea that there exists a Protestant Cathecism suggests that it was still used fairly widespread until at least the 16th century.

    The date for the extinction of the language is believed to be in the early 18th century. Some words like Kurp for shoe entered the Low German dialect of the region. Some phraseologisms also remained.

    Aside from those Baltic Prussians, there were also roughly 120,000 Prussian Lithuanians mentioned in the 1890 census, rising to approx. 150,000 (out of 2.49 million) by 1939.

    Other than this, there were also Slavic Masurians who lived in the Southern part of East Prussia. In 1939, of the 2.49 million inhabitants of East Prussia, 85% were German indeed, but there was also a number of other populations involved.

    Typically, with Soviet coming, these groups tended to have to flee as well. There is a book, Ostpreußische Lebensläufe by Ulla Lachauer which attempted to document East Prussian stories, especially of those who had to flee. These include Prussians of all backgrounds, despite the anti-NS undertone of parts it is well worth the read for those who can speak German; it mentions the plight of some Germans as well as I believe one Lithuanian case, etc.

    Anyway, the number of mixed-marriages or Germanisations dating back to Old Prussian time is a dark number, which we cannot bring back. I would wager that German (and other) colonists were in the majority, though there would have been a good number of people who were simply Germanised. Then again, that was the case for several other parts of the area we now know as Germany anyway.

    BTW, a belated congratulations on getting your first "Thanks" vote. 200+ posts and that was your first one. Interesting!
    Here I must point out that this is an unfair statement, considering the date that this modification was added to Skadi, which was I believe somewhen during 2006. Being an old registration, this member last made a number of posts in 2005 before he came back into this thread, hence a while before the "Thanks" option was around.
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    The old prussian were the last heathen people in "Germany". But it wasn`t a germanic religion. The religion was very similiar to the old lituanian religion.
    So they were not germanic! But in very old time (about the years 0-150 AD) the prussian lived in good neighborhood with the goths - and the mixed with them a little bit!

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    Yes, the Prussians were the last group to be converted to Christianity, I attached a good map with the dates of how Europe was converted.

    Also, I found this map on wikipedia that says Vikings settled in Prussia in the tenth century. Yes, I know wikipedia is bad, and the maps are worse.



    Anyone know anything about the Goths/Vikings mixing with the Old Prussians? I think the discussion of non-Germanic Prussians in this thread is important, as we Germanics aren't the only people, you know.
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