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Thread: Is the Black Metal Scene a Positive or Negative Example to Young Germanics?

  1. #131
    Senior Member Ward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Torchy the Bear
    Credit where credit is due -- that made me chuckle a bit. Good one.

    I dont think that I can, or want, to explain my worldview in detail, it would anyway be misunderstood and words pulled out of context or their meaning simply ignored or whatever.
    The reason you can't properly explain your views to others is because they're based entirely on your own emotional temperament as opposed to any kind of systematic application of thought.

    We have here been through several of these discussions, and I really dont care whether some christians consider me degenerate or not. Actually, I tend to take it as a compliment, because it proves that I confuse people enough to hate me. They dont know in which drawer to put me.
    I don't hate you at all. In fact I feel rather sorry for you because your views suggest much inner turmoil and sadness. I somehow suspect you've been dealt a bad hand in life, and if so you have my sympathies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrodnand View Post
    Nope, violence is always an easier way to convince someone about something. But intellectual debates, even if as an older form at the time when christianity was spread, is much harder because it is argumentative and it takes a lot of patience and serious brainstorming.
    If it was such a one-sided process of conversion as you claim, then why were a number of pagan traditions incorporated into Christianity?

    Now imagine and try to convince someone of an alien culture about your views and you'll get the idea about the fault and problems of conversion. If there is a slightest change in any culture, especially if forced, the entire system of that particular culture will change and as in the case of christianity the change was forced which further means drastic changes in everyday life, worldview of the individual through the change of morals, standards, etc.
    So, presumably you want to discard all aspects of the old secular Greco-Roman traditions that came along Christianity when it was "forced" on the pagans? How do you propose we eliminate every last trace of non-Germanic thoughts from our minds? Through black metal??

    Not later but already from the beginning. A warlord or a king was only successful in conversion because of his supreme military force that was under his own command so the folk obeyed.
    Even if Christianity established itself exclusively through force, does the fact that Christians were able to defeat pagans on the battlefield count for nothing? I ask this especially since many people here seem to abide by the principle of "the strong survive." According to that logic, paganism was simply on the wrong side of history.

    The sad thing is that we have to apply to cultural relativism in order to understand our own native culture and spirituality, it's a fact that shows how much our present culture is distanced from our native ways. Cultural relativism is the key concept to understand them.
    Oh, can cultural relativism raise the dead or recapture lost knowledge from the thin air or something?

    The nature of the will is free but the consequences will happen under natural laws. The most successful are those who understand the laws of nature and therefore are able to use them as an advantage in their ever-going process of individual growth. Freedom doesn't mean that you can get anything what you want or wish for, but you know what you can get at a particular moment and you are free to try your best to get it.
    What interpretation of natural law do you speak of? How is the black metal scene in keeping with it? Most black-metallers I've seen look utterly dysfunctional.

    What if something post-modern could be a continuation of the pre-modern, as you said they are mostly at odds but not always.
    Haha.. that's a pretty BIG "what if."

  2. #132
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    If it was such a one-sided process of conversion as you claim, then why were a number of pagan traditions incorporated into Christianity?
    Because if they hadnt, they had faced much more resistance, which nonetheless was high well into the 15th/16th century.

    It was a well formulated plan too, as I have shown with the letter I've posted in the Is Christianity Alien thread. The church people / bishops "converted" the pagan temples and holy sites, to have people keep going there, even though it meanwhile was turned into a church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    So, presumably you want to discard all aspects of the old secular Greco-Roman traditions that came along Christianity when it was "forced" on the pagans? How do you propose we eliminate every last trace of non-Germanic thoughts from our minds? Through black metal??
    It's at least a good start. As I've said earlier already, black metal is meant to be cathartic, and as such it can indeed support the process of cleaning one's mind and soul.

    And when you would take a look onto the art created by our ancestors (many pictures you can find in the photoplog here), or take a deeper look onto Beowulf and skaldic poetry, you would maybe start to understand what we have lost through the introduction of a culture that was not our own.

    It doesnt matter whether this culture was, from your today's point of view, 'better', 'nicer' or allegedly 'higher developed'. The fact remains it was and is not ours, and its introduction has destroyed a lot. And in this regard the immaterial, but nonetheless more than important "folk soul" is the biggest loss, which still hurts though, because it wasnt just killed, but left to rot slowly over centuries, and still is alive, gets tortured and perverted and mocked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    Even if Christianity established itself exclusively through force, does the fact that Christians were able to defeat pagans on the battlefield count for nothing? I ask this especially since many people here seem to abide by the principle of "the strong survive." According to that logic, paganism was simply on the wrong side of history.
    Christianity defeated paganism not through being superior, but through masses of soldiers, and from a certain point on through the ever the same game "devide and conquer", by promising certain tribes power and influence, and then another tribe didnt only face foreign enemies, but also inner enemies. A battle then impossible to win.

    And the division christianity caused in our people through blackmail and power games is that, what will defeat us in future.

    And even IF christianity won 'rightfully' (which it didnt), the result still is not right. It is a mistake that must be corrected, when we, as a folk, want to survive into the next century.


    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    What interpretation of natural law do you speak of? How is the black metal scene in keeping with it? Most black-metallers I've seen look utterly dysfunctional.
    Ehm, ja, thanks.
    But how many "black metallers" did you see in your life? Considering that the black metal scene, listeners and creators in America is pretty much nonexistent? Considering that you think Venom is the black metal we are talking about, which Hrodnand, me, Sigurd, Totenlicht,etc do not talk about?

    Either way, maybe you can try to imagine that black metal people just react stronger to the sickness of this world, and that we, instead of killing ourselves to be part of the system, rather decide to be a mirror of the sickness. You call that "dysfunctional", but I ask you, how dysfunctional are you when this world does not make you sick?
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  3. #133
    Senior Member Schönenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    But you demand that my nihilism (which I explained what I mean with that countless times now) should be proper and absolute, just like Anlef. You deny different levels or perspectives on that.
    I do not demand anything, I simply enjoy the discussion. In part because of your eloquence here and in other threads.

    But a discussion also requires that those involved can agree on some sort of bare-minimum common language and logic to be mutually understandable. Words need to carry commonly understood definitions and meanings to be decipherable. If everything were truly subjective then meaningful discussion becomes impossible. I'm pretty sure you can appreciate the danger of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    You deny a concept, which you dont like, the right to vary,
    Words carry meanings and definitions. They matter in discussions. That is what makes dialogue possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    while you demand exactly that for your own, that it can be personal, subjective and so on. Doesnt make any sense to me.
    Yes, but the "lexicological meaning" of a word is not comparable to the "personal meaning" of someone's inner faith or spiritual instinct. They are two different categories.

    Now, if I were to claim that words and their definitions should mean exactly what I think they should, then your point would be well taken. But I have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Even less so, because you condemn my views on this ground then.
    I do not condemn any of your views. I am pointing out how some of them do not hold together logically.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    But as said before, I dont think it makes any sense to further discuss that. We've been through the "is Christianity alien to Germanics" in over 100 pages, discuss christianity there. I'm tired of that. Really.
    Agreed. The whole Christian issue is better suited for the other thread.
    "Att motverka antigermanismen genom att värna germanska folk, traditioner och ideal handlar inte bara om grundläggande mänskliga rättigheter. Det handlar i slutändan om att rädda mänskligheten."

  4. #134
    Senior Member Ward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    It was a well formulated plan too, as I have shown with the letter I've posted in the Is Christianity Alien thread. The church people / bishops "converted" the pagan temples and holy sites, to have people keep going there, even though it meanwhile was turned into a church.
    Yet the Germanic pagan aspects they incorporated were not just localized, they became a part of Christendom. The most important of all Christian holidays, Christmas, is Germanic pagan in origin.

    It's at least a good start. As I've said earlier already, black metal is meant to be cathartic, and as such it can indeed support the process of cleaning one's mind and soul.
    No, I think over the course of this thread it has been well established that the black metal scene is decidedly confused, degenerate, and unrelated to any Germanic tradition, whether Christian or pre-Christian. It doesn't matter what you guys think. Your arguments have been shown to not hold water.

    And when you would take a look onto the art created by our ancestors (many pictures you can find in the photoplog here), or take a deeper look onto Beowulf and skaldic poetry, you would maybe start to understand what we have lost through the introduction of a culture that was not our own.
    Those poems had to pass through the Christian mental filters of monks in order to be written down, yes? Anyway, 'tis a shame that so much of their traditions have been lost for eternity and that our understanding of their culture will forever remain incomplete and inadequate as a guide for completely refashioning our societies. I guess we will just have to deal with that.

    It doesnt matter whether this culture was, from your today's point of view, 'better', 'nicer' or allegedly 'higher developed'.
    Oh yes it does matter. It is self-evident that the societies Germanics built under Christianity are undeniably the greatest and most advanced the world has ever seen in every conceivable way. Pardon the expression, but the post-modern outlook is really nothing more than cultural Marxist horsesh*t.

    The fact remains it was and is not ours, and its introduction has destroyed a lot.
    It became ours and now it is ours.

    And in this regard the immaterial, but nonetheless more than important "folk soul" is the biggest loss, which still hurts though, because it wasnt just killed, but left to rot slowly over centuries, and still is alive, gets tortured and perverted and mocked.
    An old friend invited me over to his parents' house for Christmas dinner on Christmas Eve. His parents are of Swedish descent and were raised in a little Swedish-immigrant community in North Dakota. They're extremely devout Christians and have never let go of the traditional values passed down to them by their Swedish forebears.

    It was during this dinner that I had what Christians might call an epiphany. As I enjoyed the delicious meal, I looked around and saw how happy and contented everyone looked. Everyone ate their meal in a civilized manner and used proper etiquette. No one used foul language or brought up any perverse subjects. Conversation was relaxed and pleasant. A bunch of spirited little blond-headed children occasionally scurried through the room as they played. A handsome, well-decorated Christmas tree looked over us from the other side of the room. And between two tastefully-placed wreaths on a wall next to us hung an old, traditional painting of a blond-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, warmly smiling at us.

    Generosity, goodwill, and kinship were in the air. It was a celebration of LIGHT and LOVE. It was about being a part of an ancestral tradition that goes back to time immemorial. It almost seemed like the spirits of our ancestors were there with us. That night I finally discovered the true folkish nature of Christmas. It was a wonderful experience.

    The old folkish soul lived on that night, and offered living proof that the black metal scene is nothing but a sick, perverse mockery of the Germanic tradition that will hopefully soon be shuffled off this mortal coil.

  5. #135
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    Yet the Germanic pagan aspects they incorporated were not just localized, they became a part of Christendom. The most important of all Christian holidays, Christmas, is Germanic pagan in origin.

    The old folkish soul lived on that night, and offered living proof that the christianity is nothing but a sick, perverse mockery of the Germanic tradition that will hopefully soon be shuffled off this mortal coil.
    So it reads much better.
    You see, I just see no sense in keeping up something, that has ultimately become a threat to our existence. When it is anyway pagan in origin, we can as well remove the christian cover and return to the pagan backbone.

    That you think that it doesnt matter what "we guys" think, people here responding to your nonsense accusations, just shows that you are unable to estimate and esteem personalities. You want people to be part of some sort of herd. You're a generic conservative, you're close-minded, stubborn and ignorant.



    Quote Originally Posted by Schoenenbourg
    Words carry meanings and definitions. They matter in discussions. That is what makes dialogue possible.
    Yes, I agree. But what else than explaining to you what I mean with that, can I else do? I did explain what I mean, still the only word you want to notice is that where you hang yourself up on here.

    You're either unable or unwilling to engage yourself in my explanation. I doubt you're unable, but for some weird reason you find pleasure in ignoring every explanation given.

    I'm sorry, but I find those games pretty much a waste of time. Either you want to discuss, then you also need to listen and try to understand the opposite view, or you want to mock and ridicule based on intentionally misunderstood words.



    Quote Originally Posted by Schoenenbourg
    Yes, but the "lexicological meaning" of a word is not comparable to the "personal meaning" of someone's inner faith or spiritual instinct. They are two different categories.

    Now, if I were to claim that words and their definitions should mean exactly what I think they should, then your point would be well taken. But I have not.
    Yet, you deny me the right to have a "personal meaning" to nihilism.
    You deny me, on the ground of your "established definition" of nihilsm to have any values at all, just because I reject the current structures and systems of values including their "moral" backgrounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schoenenbourg
    I do not condemn any of your views. I am pointing out how some of them do not hold together logically.
    They do. They just dont do in the context where you want to push them. This is the problem, people are unwilling to understand, for discussion's sake, a certain viewpoint, they condemn, like TB, on ground of their personal judgements, which do not base in personal experience, but in prejudices and superficial (mis)informations; or even the dismissing of persons and their opinions alltogether (doesnt matter what you guys think, I know it better), because they doesnt fit into their personal judgement.

    The exchange of thoughts under this preconditions simply is not possible.

    I'm an devoted anti-christian since more than 25 years, long before I became part of any subculture. In fact, my opinion led me to several subcultures, because they shared certain views with me. But independend of that I've formed my opinion about christianity, refined it, engaged in its history etc. I've questioned christianity from so many angles, that it might be that you cannot follow my logic anymore, because I'm with my opinion so far out of everything what you consider normal or right. My worldview bases completely on other maximes and values. It might be that we simply will not be able to find a 'common language'.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  6. #136
    Senior Member Hrodnand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    The reason you can't properly explain your views to others is because they're based entirely on your own emotional temperament as opposed to any kind of systematic application of thought.

    Or perhaps because your "systematic" way of thinking appears to be too alien to understand something that is not part of any well known system. You judge emotional temperament yet the morals, standards, laws of our heathen ancestors were based on the common sense of the folk which has its roots in a collective emotional temperament that embraces the entire folk.



    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    If it was such a one-sided process of conversion as you claim, then why were a number of pagan traditions incorporated into Christianity?

    Well it shows how "authentic" christianity is/was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    So, presumably you want to discard all aspects of the old secular Greco-Roman traditions that came along Christianity when it was "forced" on the pagans? How do you propose we eliminate every last trace of non-Germanic thoughts from our minds? Through black metal??

    Yes, that can be a possibility. Velvet already wrote about this. Black metal is a way to become conscious about the modern world that is overly dimmed by illusions and lies that are fed to the masses. As I've already said it is not meant to be taken "word for word", it is an expression that reveals something else, rather on a spiritual level but also a challenging/critical attitude towards the world. I consider Greco-Roman traditions alien to the native Germanic spirit, black metal can be a way to get rid of them while "pushing" the listener towards a certain spiritual sensitivity and emotional intelligence which I believe is partly fundamental while dealing with the old traditions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    Even if Christianity established itself exclusively through force, does the fact that Christians were able to defeat pagans on the battlefield count for nothing? I ask this especially since many people here seem to abide by the principle of "the strong survive." According to that logic, paganism was simply on the wrong side of history.

    On many occasions christians didn't defeat heathen germanics on the battlefield but through treachery and deceit among the folk, down to the point when the folk became so corrupted that they simply "devoured" each other, the same way most politicians today "defeat" the masses. There were good examples for this in the Scandinavian countries.


    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer View Post
    Oh, can cultural relativism raise the dead or recapture lost knowledge from the thin air or something?
    No and I didn't say that, but at least it can lead us a few steps closer to understand their ways.
    :Überschöpfung:



  7. #137
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    You Can Keep Black Metal .....

    I'll stick with Nationalist RAC !

    Music like Oidoxie, HKL, Bollwerk, Stahlgewitter, Sturmwehr, Werwolf, Kraftschlag, Nordfront, Macht Und Ehre, Schwarzer Orden, Boots Brothers, Nahkampf, Kahlkopf Spreegeschwader, Landser, Die Weissen Riesen, Starkstrom, Volkszorn, Noie Werte, Faustrecht, Tonstoerung, Sturmtrupp, Stoneheads, Endstufe, Endloeser, Hetzjagd, Intimidation One, Final War, Bound For Glory, Nordic Thunder, Centurion, Squadron, English Rose, Brutal Attack, No Remorse, Avalon, Legion Of St. George, Razors Edge, Legion-88, Bunker-84, Fraction Hexagone, Heysel, Totenkopf, Storm, Armco, Strappo, Nativi, Block-11, Malnatt, Civico-88, Division-250, Klan, Estirpe Imperial, Lusitanoi, Involved Patriots, Fortress, etc...............

  8. #138
    Senior Member Ediruc's Avatar
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    As a youth myself, I just gotta interject that I don't like black metal -- AT ALL. I'm more power, progressive, speed/thrash, heavy metal taste.

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    Hundhedensk "Friend of Germanics"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edoric View Post
    As a youth myself, I just gotta interject that I don't like black metal -- AT ALL. I'm more power, progressive, speed/thrash, heavy metal taste.
    The metal subculture is not a good example for young germanics. Alot of drinking, drugs etc. is going on in those circles.

  10. #140
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    I can see no fault in the fact that youths wanna have some fun at the weekends. Specially the black metal scene is a predominantly european scene, sure there are exceptions, but as always with exceptions, they just prove the rule.

    The broader metal scene is not that limited, the motto sex, drugs and rock'n'roll is much more prevalent, but still a lot of good and decent people among them.

    Let's have a look at other youth cultures, that are much more wide spread.

    Rap / Hip Hop. Glorification of blacks, glorification of criminals, murderers, rapists, never censored in almost all the lyrics. Even white followers look and behave like black gangstas.

    Punk / Core. Generally a leftist youth culture, anarchy and lots of alcohol and drugs, or the other extreme straight-edge, veganism.

    Rave / Tekkno. Drugs use is obligatory, LSD, pills, speed, cocaine is taken as if it were some sweets, alcohol the same. Sex on club toilets is common.

    The latter is also pretty common among all those 'normal' youth adhering to southern pop music or pop music as such, glorifying the latin lover and the newly introduced arab lover. Cocaine is a common accessoire as well. They drink like hell too.


    Several studies have shown that intelligence is highest among metal people, and probably another interesting detail is that the metal scene, unlike other so-called youth cultures, is not at all limited to youths. A lot of the musicians are far beyond the 30, Lemmy & Co. go 50+, and I know myself a lot of black metal fans beyond their 40s, even met over 60 year old people on black metal festivals.

    To quote my signature:
    Black Metal is an expression of (european) men's collective immune system, vomiting the degenerate religions and ideologies that have caused him spiritual sickness. (Infratetraskelion)

    Vomiting is never a nice thing to see, but important and in the end healthy. Spiritual vomiting is katharsis.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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