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Thread: A Theory on "Cro-Magnon"

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    A Theory on "Cro-Magnon"

    Maybe I mentioned this already, I'm not sure.

    I was thinking that when we classify people as "Cro-Magnon" maybe it really isn't a racial classification. Maybe the "robust" thick boned features are mainly a result of testosterone and a very active lifestyle. After all exercise causes bones to thicken and people to build a "robust" physical appearance- as does testosterone. we all know that people today are feminized by diet and chemicals. In fact a grain based agrarian diet has a slight feminizing effect itself, as does our modern hormone injected milk and meat. It could simply be that genetically identical people were doing more hunting and meat eating and were leading more active lifestyles back then.

    It might make more sense to simply note the "robustness" as a masculizing effect. I think it can exist in women as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Maybe I mentioned this already, I'm not sure.

    I was thinking that when we classify people as "Cro-Magnon" maybe it really isn't a racial classification. Maybe the "robust" thick boned features are mainly a result of testosterone and a very active lifestyle. After all exercise causes bones to thicken and people to build a "robust" physical appearance- as does testosterone. we all know that people today are feminized by diet and chemicals. In fact a grain based agrarian diet has a slight feminizing effect itself, as does our modern hormone injected milk and meat. It could simply be that genetically identical people were doing more hunting and meat eating and were leading more active lifestyles back then.

    It might make more sense to simply note the "robustness" as a masculizing effect. I think it can exist in women as well.
    Well, but in the end there are two sides of this issue, namely modification (what you meant) AND selection.

    Because if you deal with such pressures on individuals over many generations, those which fit into these demands better will make it more often, simple as that.

    Now add to that the fact that Cromagnoids have advantages in a colder environment, need more energy, the Ice Age was over and conditions changed and the Neolithic people were mostly leptodolichomorphs which disadvantages were very low to non existend if its about effectiveness, yet they were better adapted to the warm climate and needed less energy -> population movements and selection worked in most regions against Cromagnoids.

    The Cromagnoid influence in Europe was lowest in the warmer times, thats not by chance but the result of their main advantage (= cold adaptation) being not important and the herder and farmer way of life being easy to spread in such a climate too.

    If you make a Nordid or Mediterranid extremely robust, he still doesnt become Cromagnoid necessarily, neither is every Cromagnoid + derivatives (Baltisation + Alpinisation!) robust.
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    The reconstructions of Cro-Magnon look close to a Nordic, even close to Alpine. Not exactly the same but very similar. There isn't significant difference between modern Europeans and Cro-Magnon. The main difference is the more robust features.

    I don't believe all the talk about being adapted to the cold or the theories that this produced a superior race. Most early European populations were huddled along the coast line where the weather is mild, some of the mildest in the world. I'd say France or Italy is probably about as mild as you can get weather wise. It barely gets cold enough to snow in the winter and it doesn't get hot in the summer. Eskimos live in much colder conditions as do/did Native Americans in North America. It was only later that European populations spread inland, relatively recently it would seem. I don't think physical adaption to cold weather was much of an issue. Aryans are poorly adapted for the cold unless you compare them to blacks. Mental adaptation would be most significant which is a bit hard to measure from looks. Most people would simply wear animal skins, build a house and a fire and survive the winter that way. They wouldn't do it by evolving fur and robust features to shake off the cold.

    Anyway it seems Cro-Magnon arrived as the last ice age receded and the temperatures got warmer. If anything its Neanderthal who is adapted to the cold. We also see the same thing during the transitional period- Cro-Magnon is living along the coast and Neanderthal is living inland where its colder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    The reconstructions of Cro-Magnon look close to a Nordic, even close to Alpine. Not exactly the same but very similar. There isn't significant difference between modern Europeans and Cro-Magnon. The main difference is the more robust features.

    I don't believe all the talk about being adapted to the cold or the theories that this produced a superior race. Most early European populations were huddled along the coast line where the weather is mild, some of the mildest in the world. I'd say France or Italy is probably about as mild as you can get weather wise. It barely gets cold enough to snow in the winter and it doesn't get hot in the summer. Eskimos live in much colder conditions as do/did Native Americans in North America.
    Yes, in our time, not during the Ice Age period. Additionally archaic Cromagnoids became over time shorter legged and broader build, so they definitely adapted to the cold, but because it wasnt as extreme as in f.e. Eskimid areas and they had a good diet, the development wasnt as extreme.

    It was only later that European populations spread inland, relatively recently it would seem. I don't think physical adaption to cold weather was much of an issue.
    Proportional differences and developments show otherwise though. Lappids f.e. are quite short and short legged too, especially in comparison to the Nordid type, which is by his body type more warm adapted.

    Aryans are poorly adapted for the cold unless you compare them to blacks.
    Well, there is a gradient from Sibirid - Lappid - Eastbaltid - Baltid - Westbaltid - Dalofaelid - Nordid - Atlantid - Gracilmediterranid if its about cold vs. warm climate.

    Mental adaptation would be most significant which is a bit hard to measure from looks. Most people would simply wear animal skins, build a house and a fire and survive the winter that way. They wouldn't do it by evolving fur and robust features to shake off the cold.
    Cromagnoids were "complete" when the warm period began. Aurignacoids (Nordoid + Mediterranoid in Europe) began to grow and colonise fast in the warm period without developing the cold adapted traits. Where they made it further North, they had to become taller and heavier than those in the warm area, to have more volume. Even further into the inland and colder areas, they often moved in just for being bred out by more sparing, frugal and cold adapted reduced-pyknomorphic forms, like in the Baltic forest areas.

    Anyway it seems Cro-Magnon arrived as the last ice age receded and the temperatures got warmer. If anything its Neanderthal who is adapted to the cold. We also see the same thing during the transitional period- Cro-Magnon is living along the coast and Neanderthal is living inland where its colder.
    Cromagnoids survived close to the colder regions and the newcomers were mostly Aurignacoid (Nordoid + Mediterranoid in Europe).

    Denmark f.e. was a mostly Cromagnoid (Borreby rather) area in the Mesolithic period and became Nordicised later. Those Mesolithic people were among the first to enter the region after the retreat of the Ice and came from the refugia, they were bred however for the colder regions closer to the ice shields, whereas the majority of Aurignacoids seem to have come from or being bred in already temperate to warm areas and periods.

    In experiments with cold water, leptomorphic build, rangy people get undercooled much faster than broader, shorter build people, with the broadness and mass being a general advantage - in the past only possible with sufficient energy, thats why the hunter-gatherers were Cromagnoid and rather unreduced, the tillers and gatherers of unfavourable, colder regions became reduced (kept the climate advantage - lost the energy disadvantage, at the cost of effectiveness, which wasnt necessary then in dependent farmers).

    If you put a Cromagnoid and Nordid/Mediterranid in cold water, chances are high that the first will get undercooled later in comparison.
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    Dear Agrippa,

    There are some doubts which I have that I thought I could ask you regarding the Cro magnon man. Was the Galley hill manand combe capelle, which was found in Europe the proto-cromagnon? This is because the Galley Hill and combe capelle fossils were dated to be earlier than that of the cro-magnon right??

    But then again Galley hill is assumed to represent the later Atlanto mediteraneans or in other words a dolicocephalic strain of mediteranean variety! Doesn't this imply that Atlanto-meds originated in Europe??

    I'm looking forward for your reply thank you in advance

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    Quote Originally Posted by teutonicscult View Post
    There are some doubts which I have that I thought I could ask you regarding the Cro magnon man. Was the Galley hill manand combe capelle, which was found in Europe the proto-cromagnon? This is because the Galley Hill and combe capelle fossils were dated to be earlier than that of the cro-magnon right??
    Combe Capelle and Bruenn dated earlier, but not much so. Its most likely that all these forms came up outside of Europe and entered Europe from the Near East directly and Central Asia.

    The only thing I can say else about the early Aurignacid and Cromagnid is, that the Cromagnid were much more progressive at that time.

    The later, highly progressive AurignacOID forms we find in Europe might be explained in various ways, among these:
    - The older, more primitive strate were substituted by new and more progressive forms from the Near East and Central Asia
    - They evolved on because of a progressive evolutionary trend among themselves.
    - This trend was real, but the traits came from mixture with the Cromagnid, from which they got the more progressive tendencies in their early time.

    Most likely we deal with a mix of all three and possible other factors, but again, its remarkable that the early Cromagnid skulls were as progressive as modern Cromagnoids are, sometimes even more so, the Aurignacoids on the other hand were often much more primitive, but the modern variants are highly progressive.

    Doesn't this imply that Atlanto-meds originated in Europe??
    Well, depends on how you define it, but in the end I guess it originated in Europe, but by processes which worked thousands of years on an Aurignacoid base and were altered by new immigrants from the Near East - same for Nordoids too most likely.

    Some of the early Proto-Mediterranoids were still quite primitive interestingly, even among the Neolithics, but there were in Europe and the Near East highly progressive forms as well, like in the people of Catalhüyük, which seem to be closely related to parts of those people which became most influential in Europe, even far into Eastern, Central and Northern Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by teutonicscult View Post
    Dear Agrippa,

    There are some doubts which I have that I thought I could ask you regarding the Cro magnon man. Was the Galley hill manand combe capelle, which was found in Europe the proto-cromagnon? This is because the Galley Hill and combe capelle fossils were dated to be earlier than that of the cro-magnon right??

    But then again Galley hill is assumed to represent the later Atlanto mediteraneans or in other words a dolicocephalic strain of mediteranean variety! Doesn't this imply that Atlanto-meds originated in Europe??

    I'm looking forward for your reply thank you in advance
    Galley Hill was a modern human that was mistakenly dated as prehistoric by some a long time ago (including CS Coon when he wrote his book) but has been proven to be modern since then.

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    I'll just comment that Skhul 4 and La Ferrassie 1 are supposed to be two different species -- sapiens and neanderthalensis respectively -- yet they look remarkably similar.

    http://humanorigins.si.edu/ha/skhul.html
    http://humanorigins.si.edu/ha/laferr.html

    Note that both skulls appear far more progressive than La Chappelle-aux-Saints, a typical Neanderthal: http://humanorigins.si.edu/ha/lachap.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reader View Post
    I'll just comment that Skhul 4 and La Ferrassie 1 are supposed to be two different species -- sapiens and neanderthalensis respectively -- yet they look remarkably similar.

    http://humanorigins.si.edu/ha/skhul.html
    http://humanorigins.si.edu/ha/laferr.html

    Note that both skulls appear far more progressive than La Chappelle-aux-Saints, a typical Neanderthal: http://humanorigins.si.edu/ha/lachap.htm
    Thats the difference between "classic Neandertals" (very archaic and highly overspecialised traits combined, cold adapted etc.) of Europe and those from the Near East, of which some individuals might be interpreted as sapiens-hybrids, yet thats open to debate.

    As I stated quite some time ago, if sapiens mixed with Neandertals in a bigger scale, it can only have happened in the Near East with the more progressive version, but I doubt this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post

    In experiments with cold water, leptomorphic build, rangy people get undercooled much faster than broader, shorter build people, with the broadness and mass being a general advantage - in the past only possible with sufficient energy, thats why the hunter-gatherers were Cromagnoid and rather unreduced, the tillers and gatherers of unfavourable, colder regions became reduced (kept the climate advantage - lost the energy disadvantage, at the cost of effectiveness, which wasnt necessary then in dependent farmers).

    If you put a Cromagnoid and Nordid/Mediterranid in cold water, chances are high that the first will get undercooled later in comparison.
    Yes I guess it also helps to think about the Surface area to Volume ratio(S.A.V)which is important for animals to conserve or lose heat energy.The ratio is inversely propotional to the size of an organism. An animal with a lower s.a.v loses its generated heat less when compared to a tiny animal. This is important in warm blooded animals (mammals) where it plays an important role in surviving in cold regions.

    This is why animals of the same species, in colder climates, tend to be larger in size. This is seen in Tigers for example where the siberian tiger is larger than the Indian one. And when I mean larger I mean being more muscular built and having more mass. A thinner (leptomorphic) organism would have a higher S.A.V thus making it vulnerable in colder regions.
    Last edited by teutonicscult; Thursday, February 11th, 2010 at 01:51 AM. Reason: wrong spellings

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