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Thread: Modern Genetics Show That Anglo-Saxons Compose Only 5% of Modern Day British DNA Markers

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    Senior Member kingdans's Avatar
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    This article seems to support a mass in-migration of Anglo Saxons, although it is from 2002, so it's a little old.
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    I wonder what the main ethnic component of modern day Brits is. There's Celtic, Germanic, Roman, and who knows what else.Some Brits have Dinaric profiles. I wonder if that's due to Dinaric-Roman admixture. I have also heard that the Bell-Beaker people were Dinaric. Enlighten me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flemish View Post
    I wonder what the main ethnic component of modern day Brits is. There's Celtic, Germanic, Roman, and who knows what else.Some Brits have Dinaric profiles. I wonder if that's due to Dinaric-Roman admixture. I have also heard that the Bell-Beaker people were Dinaric. Enlighten me.
    Simple answer: Bell Beakers. The Bell Beakers most likely brought a significant number of Dinaroids to the British islands and the mixture with locals resulted oftentimes in what we consider to be a "Keltic Nordic" phenotype.

    Its quite obvious if looking at Nordid/Atlantid - Dinarid mixtures elsewhere, with a certain percentage being always "Keltic Nordic like". The same thing happened in England over many generations and with a little bit of selection, resulting in a more stable Keltic Nordic form than what we can find in Central Europe.

    The mixture began in Europe already though, because Britain was settled by oftentimes already mixed Bell Beaker groups.
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    Senior Member beowulf wodenson's Avatar
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    If memory serves me correctly, Sykes' book "Saxons, Vikings, and Celts" posits that the male lineage DNA of England consists of about 20 % "Germanic" sources, i.e. Anglo-Saxons, Frisians, Danes, which are apparently difficult to distinguish from each other genetically.
    Naturally the Germanic profile is most widespread in the east of England.
    It should come as a surpise to no one that the modern English are a composite of "British" and "Germanic" genes.
    I wonder what role the ancient Belgae of Britain mentioned by Julius Caesar play in the "Germanic" genetic inheritence since I believe they were noted as a non-"Celtic" people distinct from the Gauls?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf wodenson View Post
    If memory serves me correctly, Sykes' book "Saxons, Vikings, and Celts" posits that the male lineage DNA of England consists of about 20 % "Germanic" sources, i.e. Anglo-Saxons, Frisians, Danes, which are apparently difficult to distinguish from each other genetically.
    Naturally the Germanic profile is most widespread in the east of England.
    It should come as a surpise to no one that the modern English are a composite of "British" and "Germanic" genes.
    I wonder what role the ancient Belgae of Britain mentioned by Julius Caesar play in the "Germanic" genetic inheritence since I believe they were noted as a non-"Celtic" people distinct from the Gauls?
    The Celts themselves expanded over many other people's region and obviously this is why they were so variable. In the Belgae region they came into contact with Germanic people and the region was as a whole more Atlanto-Nordid we can suspect. So the Belgae were in comparison more Nordoid and Germanic influenced, but otherwise being Celts like those in the rest of Gaul.
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    The Bell-Beaker people were the dominant group in Britain around four thousand years ago. Wouldn't they only make up a small part of the overall British lineage since many different peoples immigrated into the Isles over the subsequent millenia? I just don't understand how the ethnic backround of Brits can be only a tiny bit Germanic since it was invaded three times by Germanic peoples( Angle, Saxon, Jute, Dane, and Norman). Another thing, weren't most of the Celtic peoples, who might have had some Wessex and Bell-Beaker ancestry, pushed into the periphery of the Isles? Does the percentage of Germanic ancestry vary to a great degree from region to region in England? It's my understanding that the invading Germanic peoples brought their women/families with them, and did't have to resort to procreating with the "natives".

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    Quote Originally Posted by flemish View Post
    The Bell-Beaker people were the dominant group in Britain around four thousand years ago. Wouldn't they only make up a small part of the overall British lineage since many different peoples immigrated into the Isles over the subsequent millenia? I just don't understand how the ethnic backround of Brits can be only a tiny bit Germanic since it was invaded three times by Germanic peoples( Angle, Saxon, Jute, Dane, and Norman). Another thing, weren't most of the Celtic peoples, who might have had some Wessex and Bell-Beaker ancestry, pushed into the periphery of the Isles? Does the percentage of Germanic ancestry vary to a great degree from region to region in England? It's my understanding that the invading Germanic peoples brought their women/families with them, and did't have to resort to procreating with the "natives".
    Thats all an ongoing debate, but from what we can see its quite likely that the Bell Beakers indeed left their footprints behind so to say. The whole Dinaroid or "Keltic" tendencies in parts of Britain, which are more local in a way, might point to that.

    You are absolutely right that there are significant differences by region in any case - the differences are significant even for the genflow-mixture, because different patterns can be observed here and there.

    But just as a hint, even the people of Iceland have a SIGNIFICANT British ancestry, which can be proven both by racial studies and genetic ones.

    So what do you think, if the Vikings of the islands, even of Iceland had some British among them, what will the Anglo-Saxons have done on the longer run?

    Yet you are right for the West-East tendency. The oldest strata being in Ireland, parts of Scotland and some parts of Wales, still old in the West in general, the most Germanic areas lie mostly in the East...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post

    But just as a hint, even the people of Iceland have a SIGNIFICANT British ancestry, which can be proven both by racial studies and genetic ones.

    So what do you think, if the Vikings of the islands, even of Iceland had some British among them, what will the Anglo-Saxons have done on the longer run?

    Yet you are right for the West-East tendency. The oldest strata being in Ireland, parts of Scotland and some parts of Wales, still old in the West in general, the most Germanic areas lie mostly in the East...
    The original female inhabitants of Iceland were believed to be of Orcadian ethnicity. The males were Scandinavian probably mainly Norwegian. It is believed that the Norwegian males would visit Scotland and Ireland and take willing (and some maybe not so willing) females with them to Iceland with the view of matrimony.

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    Senior Member Angelcynn Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flemish View Post
    I wonder what the main ethnic component of modern day Brits is. There's Celtic, Germanic, Roman, and who knows what else.Some Brits have Dinaric profiles. I wonder if that's due to Dinaric-Roman admixture. I have also heard that the Bell-Beaker people were Dinaric. Enlighten me.
    Actually there is little if any Roman influence in the English gene pool. The Romans didn't colonise Britain, but only had a military outpost here - much like the British in India - and most of the soldiers based here were of non-Roman heritage (most being Germanic mercenaries).

    Other than genetic studies all of the available evidence points towards a mass migration of Germanic invaders from the area between Denmark and Holland, which wiped out most of the previous inhabitants and resettled the land. A small amount of native blood would have been absorbed, but the evidence suggests not much.

    The genetic studies confuse things a bit. Some of them claim to show most English people are of native ancestry. Others to show that most are of Germanic origin. The value and reliability of genetic evidence in general is still debatable since it's such a new addition to traditional studies of history. But given the other evidence so strongly supports mass migration, then the DNA evidence would have to be thoroughly tested and very clearly in support of native continuity for it to overturn the other evidence.

    As of right now it is nowhere near that.
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    Senior Member Archeopteryx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelcynn Beorn View Post
    Actually there is little if any Roman influence in the English gene pool. The Romans didn't colonise Britain, but only had a military outpost here - much like the British in India - and most of the soldiers based here were of non-Roman heritage (most being Germanic mercenaries).

    Other than genetic studies all of the available evidence points towards a mass migration of Germanic invaders from the area between Denmark and Holland, which wiped out most of the previous inhabitants and resettled the land. A small amount of native blood would have been absorbed, but the evidence suggests not much.

    The genetic studies confuse things a bit. Some of them claim to show most English people are of native ancestry. Others to show that most are of Germanic origin. The value and reliability of genetic evidence in general is still debatable since it's such a new addition to traditional studies of history. But given the other evidence so strongly supports mass migration, then the DNA evidence would have to be thoroughly tested and very clearly in support of native continuity for it to overturn the other evidence.

    As of right now it is nowhere near that.
    I thought for example that the English count of Bath was colonized by Romans?

    Also, I would not easily discount genetic evidence. DNA does not lie no matter how much the truth may hurt.

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