The Impact of the Industrial Revolution on the Genetic Make Up of the UK

[Egeslic]

Hello

Something that has always intrested me is the apparant (in my experience) class divide in how nordic the rural, upper/middle classes generally look when compared to the urban working classes, who seem to be more Celtic/British in comparison. Personally I think this is due to the fact Britain industrialised so throughly, and that the small-farm holding (peasent, if you like) class were driven out of there lands way earlier here, than in places like Germany. This led to mass migration into the cities from rural areas of the UK, a disproportionate amount from Ireland and Wales, into the cities which led to both nordic and celt/brit types intermixing (at very fast rates too). As the darker genes tend to be more dominant (my understanding of genetics is actually quite poor, but would I be right to assume that the child of one blue-eyed and one brown-eyed parent are more likely to create a brown-eyed child?) it led to the creation of a mainly celt/brit influenced working class, whilst the rural people who were left behind exhibit features which would have been more common among pre-industrialised English people.

Overall, I still hold that England is a Germanic nation in that I believe all English people have Germanic blood to some extent, even if mixed, and are more culturally influenced by a dominant Germanic culture, whilst not all English people have Celtic/British blood, mainly those in the rural and upper/middle classes. So even if genetic studies show a large influence of non Germanic blood it would be that of the mixed majority, rather than applicable to all English people. In any case, I believe that all the european peoples are basically the same, but that the nordic variety are a slightly more pure strain, but certainly the notion of "corrupted" blood is not one which I want to push, european is european Slavic, Germanic, Celtic are all different flavours in the same meal, it doesn't matter that much and people shouldn't be ashamed of mixed heritage anyway.

[Hamar Fox]

Definitely something I've noticed too. There's a massive class divide, and also a definite rural/urban divide in racial appearance. Rural people, at least in Yorkshire, tend to be much more attractive, more fair, more blue eyed, paler in skin, and have softer features. They certainly tend to be more Nordish, but not necessarily Nordid, because Cromagnid is as strong if not stronger in rural areas than in cities.

Market towns and even some industrialised towns tend to align more with the rural type than the urban, in my experience. The urban type proper is to be found mainly in the council estates of larger cities. Even the council housed folk in large towns don't tend to look like the city type.

The middle classes, while less Cromagnoid, are similar in fairness of skin and lightness of eyes, at least in the North.

The city types, though, are a puzzlement to me. When I'm in the city centre I see lots of racial ambiguities. Some might be recently mixed, sure, but others don't seem to be.

Yes, inner city proles are going to be significantly Irish. I've studied a lot of census records from the 19th century, and there was certainly no significant immigration to Britain except from Ireland (unless you include London, which attracted all kinds of nonsense). However, keep in mind some places, like London and Liverpool, have had reasonably large Negro populations for centuries now. Those cities also tend to produce the worst of the racially ambiguous types as well. I've seen 'white' people from Liverpool who are far beyond anything I've ever seen elsewhere in Britain. About 50% of 19th century Jew immigrants settled in London, not to mention the many Italians, French, Polaks etc. that have settled there over the centuries.

You'll probably find the racial types found in cities reflect their immigration history. I won't lie, I tend to 'write off' some places, if I dislike the appearance of the people and suspect some murk in their heritage. London is one such place.

[Egeslic]

I have been to rural Yorkshire and Derbyshire a couple of times (DofE trips) and yes the people do seem very fair. I live in a market town, which is relatively rural, and I think people lean towards that way here too, but maybe not to the same extent because you guys are more isolated than us.

I definately agree with you about racial ambiguity found in cities, and yes, Liverpool and London and other cities with significant Irish and other Victorian-era immigrants do seem to produce these types. I'd say it's quite a prevelant phenominon in Birmingham too.

[rainman]

I disagree. We see the same type of thing in the United States. The upper middle/upper classes tend to be more Nordic as are the rural people. I think it has to do with the instinct of Nordics who favor more rural areas. But also usually when people think they are better than other people they either live way out in the woods away from the trash or they live in walled in "gated" communiities or find other ways to get away from the lower people. I know this is pretty much my goal I'm pretty sick of being around an uncivilized, imbecile public.

Also with the upper class- wealthy people tend to go after blond women who are more attractive to them. This helps keep the upper class more blond. White folk are mainly the only folk that like rural areas other than native americans perhaps. For some reason Asians, Jews, Blacks etc. seem to highly dislike rural areas. They like to be around large crowds and other people. I guess it makes them feel safe or something.

So I don't think it has a lot to do with the history of England as it does with the racial types themselves. In regards to non-Nordics being less pure that isn't always the case there was a pure strain of dark haired dark eyed whites.

Anyway the Nazis also seem to have felt that the rural Germanic peasant was a purer strain as immigrants tended to flood into the city and you had more blond Aryan looking types in the rural areas.

[Egeslic]

You could very well be right, I always thought perhaps there was a tendency for the Upper Class Americans to be Nordic looking because they are moreso desended from the original English, Dutch, Ulster-Scott and German settlers, rather than the Irish and Highlanders whom formed a large majority of the indetured servant population, not to mention the later Irish and Italian immigrants.

Yeah, I think Himmler tried to push that particular view because of some quasi-agricultural connection to the German blood spilled on the land or something like that. Intresting to see the conflicts of Nazi ideology, on the one hand they wanted a modern state capable of mass industrial production and communication, yet they also encouraged traditional rural values and wanted to preserve the peasent populations traditions as best they could.

[rainman]

Again- Irish and German immigrated here in large numbers at about the same time. They lived in the same neighborhoods, were discriminated against the same etc. Actually Irish had the advantage of speaking English. Many of them mixed thus you have a lot of Irish-German and Irish-English-German Americans (would acount for most of my ancestry). But the Germans are higher on the social ladder than the Irish immigrants typically. Most of the Germans coming here tended to be strongly Nordic (even though some regions of Germany are not). The Irish tended to be the more non-Nordic element of their race. The descendants of the German immigrants have risen up to equal social status roughly as the English. The Irish some of them rose but many of them remain in the white trash/redneck/hillbilly groups. A lot of the white trash now are starting to mix a lot with mexicans and blacks as well. Many of these have strong Irish backgrounds. Again we see genetics is a factor here- not history or environment. Obviously I'm generalizing it doesn't apply to all people but it generally is so.

I know the part of Cincinnati I lived in was originally founded by Germans. They were civilized. The Germans moved out and were replaced by the mostly Irish (though some lower class German and English) hillbillys. The hillbillys have mostly been pushed out by the blacks now as it continues its slide downhill. When the Germans occupied it everything was very neat and orderly and fairly prosperous. When the hill billys came in there were a lot bars, prostitution, gambling etc. Though mostly still civilized, a bit less properous but still solid working class. As the blacks and mexicans now move in it is a total crime infested ghetto. All the businesses have closed, it is filthy and the buildings crumbling.

[Angelcynn Beorn]

To be honest this isn't something i've noticed. I'm from London, and most of the people i know are obviously Nordish. In fact of all the people i know, the strongest atlanto-Mediterranean is very middle class and comes from Surrey.

Irish immigration is a slightly different matter, and it can be noticable if you go to any of the traditionally Irish areas in the inner cities, or almost the entire city in the case of Liverpool. But i don't find most people of Irish descent to be non-Nordish, simply to have a different look. Heavier and flabbier, with flatter faces. What you would expect of a country with such a high proportion of UP types.

Aside from the Celts - unless you want to go all the way back to the Flemish and Huguenots - there wasn't any major immigration into England until after the second world war.