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Thread: Do Europeans Have Claim to North America?

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    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    Question Do Europeans Have Claim to North America?

    We had discovered North America, conquered it, and made it into what it is today...but I was thinking the other day, does that necessarily mean that we can claim North America as ours like we can claim Europe? On one hand we built it into what it was, but on the other hand it is not our indigenous land. We did take it and make it our own, but then does that mean that non-white immigrants coming and "out-breeding" whites in European countries is fair game? It is only us who are allowing it to happen. Do we deserve what happened to the American Indians? Maybe North America was destined to be multi-cultural -it was that way as soon as the English and French set foot on the soil!

    Also, if North America is rightfully "ours", what is the significance of Europe? Our land is anywhere we choose it to be, no matter how long our ancestors have walked upon it?
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

    Spoonblade: Sharper than a knife and twice as deadly.

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    Senior Member cosmocreator's Avatar
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    I take exception to the use of the word "we." My ancestors go back 400 years here and really did conquer this land. Knowing your ancestry, it is unlikely you can say the same. Nonetheless, It's nice to have you aboard.:ultrawink

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    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    I am speaking of all Europeans in North America...once it was the French and British, now today it is all different groups of "whites" living in North America. "We" as in our race, not ethnicity.

    btw, you did not answer the question x_nono :ultrawink The fact that you have ancestry going so far back in North America makes this an all more relevant question to you
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

    Spoonblade: Sharper than a knife and twice as deadly.

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    Senior Member cosmocreator's Avatar
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    I sense that Vanessa is not in a very good mood.:erm

    : What was the question?

    We took the land from the injuns and now the :poo poo races of the world are taking it from us. Is this fair?

    Life is not fair. We are allowing it to happen. I don't think many want it. But what are they going to do?

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    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    Naaah, I'm in a pretty good mood! Same mood as everyday. I'm pretty steady
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

    Spoonblade: Sharper than a knife and twice as deadly.

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    i think this a great topic to bring up Vanessa!
    of course im not american so i havent really the right to say whether or not you have the claim to the land or not but in my opinion believing a people have a claim to the land they invade isnt morally right. of course,life isnt all about morals and hence the real politik comes into play and for that reason i think of north america as being the white mans land because he built it into what it is and because he has lived and prospoured (well generally lol) there for so long.
    I look on this question (and south africa etc) in a similar way,on the one hand i can understand where the white people of these countries are coming from but on the otherhand i tend to relate it to the problems between Britain and Ireland (its a similar theme,invasion from a more ''modern'' people to a less developed country) and even though the Brits brought new farming methods which benefited the Irish farmer and stayed for many centuries (we're talking the plantation times to more modern times,even today as Ulster people could tell you) does that mean they have claim to ireland? - because they introduced some aspects of ''civilisation'' to us '''gombeens'' and because they stayed for so so so long?
    absolutely not.of course unionists would argue they do but no real irish patriot would.i know the situations are diverse but as i said,this situation is what comes to mind when i hear people talk of who has the claim to america.
    i understand there is a difference and sharp contrast between whether whites or indians have claim to the land and whether white brits or white irish have claim to the land but in my opinion no british will ever have any claim to my country and i suppose many americans may now feel that no non whites have any claim to their land.
    but originally,and i guess this is the point of my post,the indians had the full moral claim to america but with the advent of the white man he took over and now it is his land and rightfully so for he made it prosper where the indians didnt/couldnt.
    this is utterly different to the situation wherein the brits came here and helped irish agriculture - yes they helped (but they hindered FAR more) but the point is we are and were more than capable of sorting ourselves out and running a fine country.
    the indians werent. and for that reason the invasion over america was valid and justified where the irish invasion wasnt and so the white american has claim to north america but the white brit has none to Eire.

    ps i dont know how my posts get so long winded and off topic :

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    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    ps i dont know how my posts get so long winded and off topic

    No no, it was all on topic. The situation with Ireland is totally relevent and an interesting addition to the topic You made a lot of good points, white men did make America/Canada what it is, there is no doubt about that! This question for me really comes out of a loss of feeling a tie to this land. I could never speak the way about Canada that you do about Ireland! Not ever!
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

    Spoonblade: Sharper than a knife and twice as deadly.

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    This a an excellent question and one that I wrestle with often. I, as Cosmocreator, descend from old colonial stock who came to these shores from the Netherlands, Germany and England as early as the 1630s. I have "Indian-killers" for direct ancestors....literally. One of my ancestors was an English fellow by the name of Aaron Stark who fought in the Pequot Wars in colonial Connecticut which was a set of battles between the English colonials and the native Pequot tribes that lived in what is now CT, MA and RI. Am I proud of this? I don't know just yet but there really isn't much I can do other than to acknowledge it as a part of my personal heritage....

    Should we, as those of Euro-ancestry, have sovereign claim to North America? Tough question for me to answer.... Yes indeed, I believe in many of the values that the US was founded on such as the small land-owning, rural, self-sustaining freeman farmer of yesteryear and the right to assemble and the right to bear arms, etc, etc. I also have at least ten direct ancestors who were soldiers in the American revolution so the blood of the brave men and women who were there when the country was born and who believed in what it stood for, flows through my veins. When I look at things this way, I feel that we do have a moral right to be here.....

    ...however, there is more to the story than just this. It's interesting, when I am working on my genealogy and my ancestral pride starts to swell, there's always a nagging little pang, lodged deep in my genetic memory that keeps this pride in check. This irritant to my sense nationalism is the knowledge that there were others here before, who had lived here for thousands of years, and who had a legitimate right to this land.

    I'm not so sure that I agree with this notion that the native Amerinds couldn't have built what the whites did after they arrived here. In my eyes, it's more a matter of their life-style being simply different than that of the European settlers. And on another note, while the Amerinds may have technologically 'inferior' to the colonials, I regard them as being spiritually superior to my Judeo-Christian, desert-god worshipping ancestors. Their nature-venerating, harmonious way of life is something that we should commend...especially in this day and age of global over-population, consumer culture and polluted skies, waters and soils. It is because of this that I am a Nordic Heathen...Sorry, I got a little off-topic, eh?

    Anyway, I'm no closer to the answer than I was before I started this post but at least I've thought some more about it and I certainly consider it a worthy and interesting topic of discussion. i look forward to other's opinions.

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    North American Indians Were Only Mogoloid Colonizers From Asia

    The North American Indian is not "indigenous" to this continent. Like Europeans, he came here as a colonizer. The fact that superior colonizers from Europe eventually pushed him aside is simply a fact of life - and history.

    WF4E

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    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    Yes WF4E, they were colonizers as well but we cannot forget that we basically "colonized" all of Europe. Our ancestors moved to these different lands, we didn't start off in Ireland, Iceland, Germany etc. Would we deserve to have our lands taken over by more advanced extra-terrestrials? Sounds quite sci-fi, I know, but it's the same principle

    I'm not so sure that I agree with this notion that the native Amerinds couldn't have built what the whites did after they arrived here. In my eyes, it's more a matter of their life-style being simply different than that of the European settlers.

    I totally agree there. Where I live the overwhelming majority of natives are in poverty, "bums", alcoholics, chronic gamblers, criminals, etc (and we have very many natives here). I don't think that it was the "white man's" fault for the state of the natives today (like we are taught it is), rather that they weren't ready and couldn't adapt to European civilization. We can't expect all races to evolve the same way as ours. Look at the Japanese, they have a perfectly successful society and a rich culture, but it is so far off from ours!

    And on another note, while the Amerinds may have technologically 'inferior' to the colonials, I regard them as being spiritually superior to my Judeo-Christian, desert-god worshipping ancestors.

    oh for sure! That was one thing that we lossed was our spirituality...I can't help but think how we may have evolved differently as well had all of Europe not been Christianized.
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

    Spoonblade: Sharper than a knife and twice as deadly.

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