View Poll Results: Which identity do you think fits the New World best?

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  • A white one.

    6 14.63%
  • A Germanic one.

    16 39.02%
  • An Anglo-Colonial one.

    14 34.15%
  • Other (please specify).

    5 12.20%
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Thread: The New World Identity: White, Germanic or Anglo-Colonial?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradford View Post
    If Scandinavians are White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants then why aren't Estonians or Latvians or even Protestant French, Italians and Polish considered WASPs.
    The Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Astors, Roosevelts, and Du Ponts, for example, are all considered to be WASPs. WASP is more of a geographical and class identity than a racial identity. The term WASP denotes upper class Northeasterners. Most people don't use it to describe poor people of English descent.

    If there would have been a successful Protestant Estonian family in the Northeast during the 18th or 19th Century, then they probably would have been absorbed into the WASP framework just like the Vanderbilts and the Du Ponts.

    My guess is that this class centered conception of WASP is also the reason why hedonistic materialists like Hugh Hefner might want to claim membership. He probably couldn't care less about the racial components; he's just a social climber who wants to further legitimize his aristocratic pretensions.

    EDIT: Also note the fixation on the Mayflower. Jamestown, the first permanent English colony in North America, was settled 13 years before Plymouth Colony. If WASPism pertained to race more than to other factors, then the connection to New England wouldn't be emphasized as much.

    EDIT 2: You don't consider Anglicans/Episcopals to be WASPs? Why not? They were the colonial upper crust- the WASPiest of WASPs.

  2. #42
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    I love how you use the wiki definition, on a board like this I'd assume people would learn to understand that wiki is probably not the most reliable source of information. Your remarks regarding Hugh Hefner, perhaps are true, but the fixation on the Mayflower usually has more to do with the fact that WASPs proper are those whose traditions are Puritan OR Quaker in origin. Jamestown was a crown colony.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradford View Post
    ...WASPs proper are those whose traditions are Puritan OR Quaker in origin...
    Didn't you just write that true WASPs are Methodist or Presbyterian (which is more of a Scottish denomination than an English one)? Now they're Quaker and Puritan?

    The WASP conception is a bit more inclusive than your restrictive (yet oddly amorphous) definition of it, and the salient points are social class and geographic location more so than strict racial definitions. I can find some citations for my position if you want (so long as you provide citations for your arguments), but in the end I don't really think its all that important.

  4. #44
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    Obviously you didn't read my statement, I said whose traditions are Puritan in origin, that obviously applies almost exclusively to the mainstream denominations, Methodism and Presbyterianism. The Scottish, Welsh, and sometimes Scots-Irish are the only people whom I consider WASP without being English, so the fact that Presbyterianism is Scottish in origin means nothing, Freemasonry is Scottish in origin too, I suppose the Masons' ranks don't include any WASPs then.

  5. #45
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    Maybe it will sound weird, but I see people in Canada in a few groups. French, British, and other. I only feel any special sort of kinship with Canadians that are British or Irish in origin and who speak English. Obviously there are plenty of Germans and other various ethnic groups in Canada (officially 10% are Germans in the whole country. In the two provinces I live, one is a lot more multikulti, and one is probably more British than Britain and around maybe 90% or so.), but I feel that the core English Canadian is British Isles in origin. They are the biggest ethnic groups in the country still, although obviously we aren't the fastest growing demographic.

    To me in Quebec if you aren't French then you are out of place as well, although I don't feel really much kinship at all with them, other than the fact that we are both from Canada. I am pro-separatism in Quebec, not from any real dislike of the French though, I do like them. I think a number of Irish settlers were assimilated into the French during the Famine, and clearly there are some English speakers there that probably want to feel like they are entitled to their culture in Quebec, although frankly I see it as a French place, not to belittle the other people who went to Quebec and lived there for generations.

    So, I suppose that means that I don't see Canada as specifically White, Germanic, or entirely Anglo-colonial (the Scottish, Irish, and French aren't English or Germanic, besides peripheral influence). I hope I don't anger German Canadians or anything like that, they are obviously easily assimilable and I would rather get 100.000 Germans/Dutch/Danes/Whatever in a year than 100.000 people from Sri Lanka, quite obviously. I like them. I think I may have an eastern-Canada orientated bias though, I haven't spent very much time at all in western Canada (in the order of days) and I feel isolated from them. I know the Prairies got a lot of central European immigrants during the settlement era.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradford View Post
    Obviously you didn't read my statement, I said whose traditions are Puritan in origin, that obviously applies almost exclusively to the mainstream denominations, Methodism and Presbyterianism.
    All Presbyterians are Calvinists, but not all Calvinists are Presbyterians. The Puritans were Calvinists who rejected Presbyterianism.

    Methodism evolved from the Church of England, not from Puritanism.

    Why don't you include Episcopals/Anglicans in your definition of true WASPs?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by runder View Post
    Methodism evolved from the Church of England, not from Puritanism.
    What ARE you talking about? Methodists are Calvinistic, especially in the United States (Though I do believe a minority group of them are essentially Episcopalians so of course I do not include them). I probably should have said Calvinistic rather than Puritan, but regardless, COE is not even Protestant in my view.

  8. #48
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    We're getting a bit far afield, but...

    Methodism started as a reform movement within the Church of England by John Wesley (an Anglican minister), Charles Wesley, and George Whitefield (also an Anglican minister) in the 1730s. This reform movement split off and became a new Protestant denomination. Wesley and others brought it to North America in mid to late 18th Century. Note that this is long after the arrival of the Pilgrims and the formation and dissolution of the English Commonwealth.

    Methodists following Wesley are not Calvinsts, they are Arminians.

    http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/c...F83%7D&notoc=1

    http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/arminian/

    There is a group of "Calvinistic Methodists." Apparently, George Whitefield, unlike John Wesley, was Calvinist. Calvinistic Methodistm is predominantly in Wales. The U.S. branch of Calvinistic Methodists joined with the U.S. Presbyterian Church in the 1920s.

    I'm citing this from Nelson's Dictionary of Christianity.

  9. #49
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    It's true the language and culture are English, however the input from other Germanic nations can't be ignored. I speak English and respect the culture and traditions of the Anglo-Saxons, however, I also cherish my German heritage. I don't see anything wrong if people from the New World celebrate the traditions of their ancestors along with the newly acquired ones.

  10. #50
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    Anglo-Colonial

    I think the New World should be termed as Anglo-Colonial. I think this because the first folkway to influence the New World among our Germanic race were the English. The Puritan Anglo-Saxons settled down in Massachusetts, claiming the land as their new Zion. New England lends all the place names to the eastern English counties that the Puritans hailed from.

    The descendants of the Anglo-Colonialists from Massachusetts also founded many of the modern cities in America today such as Buffalo, Cleveland, St. Paul, Denver, Seattle, San Francisco, and even Salt Lake City! (Those Mormons were English-Americans too).

    The western US was carved out by Anglo-Americans migrating in mass numbers westward. It is only appropriate we should term the New World for those who dominated it and brought the continent and its indigenous people to their knees.

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