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Thread: Facts About Israel and the Old Apartheid South Africa

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    Facts About Israel and the Old Apartheid South Africa

    By Maurice Ostroff


    Trade and Armaments


    If a truly objective and unbiased investigation were to be conducted of countries, which supported and cooperated with the apartheid government, Israel would hardly earn mention. Moreover, Israel’s positive contribution in covertly training Black leaders during the apartheid period by organizations such as Mashav would earn wide recognition.

    The common misconception that Israel was a major factor in supporting the apartheid regime in South Africa is due to ignorance or negligent research on the part of most journalists. There is also evidence of deliberate media bias in some instances.

    The ANC’s resentment of countries that supplied arms to the apartheid government is understandable. But what is beyond understanding, is why the resentment is selectively applied only to Israel, which played a completely insignificant role, while the main suppliers of financial aid and weaponry, as will be decisively shown in this chapter, were France, Britain, Canada, West Germany, Italy, India, Belgium, Taiwan and the United States.

    Israel is widely accused of having been out of step with international trends by continuing to trade with South Africa in the eighties. Yet in 1986, while apartheid was suffering worldwide opprobrium, South Africa’s main trading partners were, U.S.A. - $3.4 billion, Japan - $2.9 billion, Germany- $2.8 billion, U.K. - $2.6 billion. In defending Britain’s position at the time, Sir Alec Douglas Home referred to Britain's heavy investment in South Africa and the strategic importance of naval facilities at Simonstown.

    By comparison, Israel’s puny $200 million total trade with South Africa amounted to less than 1% of South Africa's total trade.

    The apartheid regime could have been brought to its knees much earlier, had its oil supply been cut off. All of its $2 billion annual oil import came from Arab states, mainly Saudi Arabia. A $1 billion barter deal was concluded with Iran, exchanging weapons from South Africa’s own armaments producers in exchange for oil. A similar deal for $750 million was concluded with Iraq. Is it not irrational that none of these countries are judged by the same yardstick as being applied to Israel?

    Foreign investment was a major source of support to the regime. Arab countries accounted for one third of the foreign investment in South Africa, totaling over 9 billion dollars. (Middle East Review, Summer 1985)


    Odious Debts [1] and Reparations For Victims Of Apartheid

    To obtain a picture of the real suppliers who kept the apartheid regime alive, it is informative to look at the claims being made for cancellation of “odious debts” and for reparations for victims of apartheid. The following example is given by the Alternative Information and Development Center In South Africa, which started a debate over the legitimacy of the debts incurred by the apartheid regime.

    The phrase "odious debts" was first coined by Alexander Sack, a legal scholar, on the obligations of successor nations. His theory of the debts of successor nations has come down to be known as the "doctrine of odious debts".

    Then Director of Finance and previous Reserve Bank Governor, Chris Stals confirmed that financial credit to the Apartheid government was critical in financing the system: He is reported to have said,

    “If the world banking community should effectively exclude South Africa from international trade and payments systems, it would be a much more effective sanctions measure than trade sanctions applied by governments”.


    Apartheid's four main credit lenders,[2] covering 90% of long-term loans, were the US, Germany, Switzerland and the UK.

    German net capital export to South Africa between 1985 and 1993 amounted to $2.13 billion. In 1976, Barclays Bank bought £6 million worth of South African government defense bonds and three years later invested £11 million in South Africa's oil from coal company, SASOL.

    The 1962 edition of "Who Owns Whom" listed 333 British companies with South African associates or subsidiaries, which had risen to over 500 by 1971.

    In 1962 Britain's ICI and South Africa's De Beers each put £5 million into AECI (African Explosives and Chemicals Industries) to set up three new plants producing tear gas, ammunition for small arms, anti-tank and aircraft rockets.

    British Leyland’s South African subsidiary supplied Land Rovers that were used by the South African police against students in the 1976 Soweto uprising.

    Royal Dutch/Shell's subsidiary, Shell South Africa, was involved in extensive operations in the petroleum, mining and chemical industries of South Africa and Namibia, with an estimated turnover of more than US$2 billion in South Africa in 1989.


    Reparation claims for victims of apartheid[3]


    In August 2002 Lawyers representing South African apartheid victims presented claims in New York,[4] seeking billions of dollars for "blood and misery" from German, Swiss and US firms. Figures of anywhere between $50 billion and $100 billion have been mentioned for the apartheid claims.

    These claims are in addition to lawsuits filed in Manhattan on June 19, 2002 against Swiss banks UBS and Credit Suisse and US bank Citibank and on July 3 against US computer giant IBM, and Deutsche Bank, Dresdner Bank and Commerzbank, all of Germany.

    They are under fire for providing money, technology and training to prop up the apartheid state between 1948 and 1993 despite apartheid being declared a crime against humanity, and international embargoes.

    Other companies to be targeted include oil, electronics, weapons and pharmaceutical firms.

    On November 12, 2002[5] the Khulumani Support Group[6] filed a suit in the New York Eastern District Court against 8 banks and 12 other companies for apartheid reparations.

    The complaint names eight banks and twelve oil, transport, communications technology, and armaments companies from Germany, Switzerland, Britain, the United States, Netherlands, and France. The defendants in alphabetical order were:

    Barclays National Bank, British Petroleum P.L.C., Caltex Petroleum Corporation, Citigroup, Commerzbank, Credit Suisse, Daimler Chrysler, Deutsche Bank, Dresdner Bank, Exxon Mobil Corporation, Fluor Corporation, Ford Motor Company, Fujitsu ICL. (previously International Computers Limited), General Motors, International Business Machines (IBM), J.P. Morgan Chase (Chase Manhattan), Rheinmetall, Royal Dutch Shell, Total Fina-Elf, UBS.

    The suit claims that corporations, which aided and abetted the apartheid regime, are responsible for the suffering of the apartheid victims. For example: IBM and ICL provided the computers that enabled South Africa to create the hated "pass book system" and to control the black South African population. Car manufacturers provided the armored vehicles that were used to patrol the townships. Arms manufacturers violated the embargoes on sales to South Africa, as did the oil companies. The banks provided the funding that enabled South Africa to expand its police and security apparatus.


    Nuclear cooperation and armaments

    With regard to nuclear cooperation, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA)[7], reports that the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists provides a detailed history of South Africa’s nuclear programs. South Africa’s nuclear program was launched in 1949 and supported by France, the United States and Germany until 1975. France supplied reactors.

    The US supplied a research reactor in 1965 (SAFARI-1) and weapons grade Uranium until 1975. Germany provided technical training at the Nuclear Research Center in Karlsruhe and transferred critical enrichment technology to South Africa.

    Although there has been much speculation over Israeli-South African collusion on developing a nuclear weapon, David Albright, who wrote an extensive article on South Africa’s atomic bomb development concluded that "available evidence argues against significant cooperation" with Israel. He concludes that ARMSCOR, the South African corporation that took over the bomb project in the late 1970s, "is unlikely to have used Israeli assistance in developing its nuclear devices." (Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, July/August 1994).

    The following is a sampling of the detailed list of arms supplies to South Africa provided by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI):

    · UK 14 Westland Wasp helicopters supplied in 1973 and 1974
    · France 38 Mirage fighter aircraft supplied in 1974 and 1975
    · Jordan 717 Tigercat missiles suppplied in 1974
    · Italy 80 military aircraft supplied in 1974
    · UK 41 Centurion tanks supplied in 1974
    · France 48 AS-12 air to surface missiles supplied in 1975
    · France 2 submarines supplied in 1975
    · France 2040 air to surface missiles supplied between 1976-1983
    · Italy 96 Impala counter insurgency equipment between 1976-1983
    · Spain 60 Centurion tanks supplied in 1979.


    SIPRI’s yearbook describes Israel’s major contributions during that time period as limited to a dozen patrol boats.

    The SIPRI Yearbook for 1985 reports that France, West Germany and UK were the only countries listed as supplying SA with military equipment in 1984. Between 1963 and 1975 the largest suppliers of arms to South Africa were: France, UK, USA, West Germany, in that order.

    UNESCO and other sources have provided similar assessments.

    An extensive South African report[8] discloses that by 1965, 120 licenses for the local manufacture of military equipment were negotiated with a wide range of foreign sources (Leonard, 1983: 140).

    In 1963 the National Institute for Rocket Research was established, jointly financed by the South African and French governments, and the missiles were developed with the assistance of a French electrical engineering concern - Thomson CSF

    The Ratel armored personnel carrier, was implied to be a copy of the French Berliet VXB, and the 127-mm truck-mounted multiple rocket-launcher, had remarkable similarities to the Taiwanese Working Bee 6 system.

    Other examples are the much-vaunted G-5 and G-6 155-mm Howitzers. A close examination reveals that the Space Research Corporation of Canada and the United States supplied the technology required to develop the weapons in the form of shells, gun barrels, technicians and testing equipment.

    Cementation Engineering, a South African subsidiary of Trafalgar House a large British conglomerate, produced the G-5.. Special lathes for producing the G-5 shells were imported from CIT Alcatel of France, and equipment for filling the shells from Rheinmetall of West Germany.

    Sandrock Austral, manufactured French-licensed armored cars. This included a contract to supply the army with locally assembled Thomson-CSF radios from France (Jane's Defence Weekly, 4.9.1983: 830).

    Marconi South Africa, was a major supplier of radar and communications equipment to the South African Defense Forces (SADF). A subsidiary of Marconi (UK) updated the S247 radars of the SA Air Force's northern air-defense sector in 1983. Reutech was one of the most important suppliers of military electronics in South Africa. It is made up of five companies, which operated primarily within the sphere of the South African armaments industry.
    Source
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

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    SA weermag wapens.

    Die R4 aanvalsgeweer is 'n direkte copy van die joodse Gali geweer en is onder liksensie hier gemaak.Die Gali weer is 'n copy van die AK47 wat die jode
    ontwerp het na een van hul oorloe.Ek dink nog steeds die R1(308 kaliber)is 'n beter wapen.Die idee van die R4(223 kaliber)het begin toe die Russe die AK74 ontwikkel het en dit in Afganistan gebruik het teen die Taliban.Die dokers in Pakistan het gesien dat die wonde baie erger was as met ander kalibers soos die 308.Blykbaar is die patroon in vlug onstabiel en dit vergroot die wond.Die gedagte agter dit is dat 'n dooie het nie mense nodig om agter hom te kyk nie,maar 'n gewonde het omtrent 7 mense nodig.
    Wat die G5 betref,dit was deur 'n briljante Witman ontwerp oorsee,wat toe deur die joodse Mossad vermoor was omrede hy die groot kanonne ontwerp het waarmee ou Saddam die jode mee geskiet het.Dit kon dink ek 'n bom verder as 400 km ver gooi.Die loop was gele gewees binne in 'n skuins gat en het gerus op trein spore om dit te laat draai.Ek dink nie dit kon eintlik baie op en af beweeg het nie.Die Mirage wat toe die Cheeta geword het was deur joodse vlieg engineurs gehelp ontwerp.Hulle het 'n veg vliegtuig vir die jode gebou maar moes dit toe los omrede die jode in die USA gekant was daarteen,want die se vliegtuie word mos verskaf.So die lot is toe deur SA gehuur om die Mirage te verander.In daardie tyd was daar so 'n beriggie gewees oor die baie geld wat hulle ontvang hier in SA.
    Ja hulle was ook betrokke met die nuclear ontwikkeling in SA.
    'n Amerikaanse sateliet het 'n helder lig gesien oor ek dink Mariem eiland en die
    spekulasie was dat ons wel iets soontoe geskiet het.
    Die Voster regering en die na hom het die jode baie gehelp met hul oorloe teen die moslems deur geld toe te laat om die land uit te gaan en ander voorrade en vegters.
    Voster se verraad teen die Boer het 'n lang pad geloop.Hy was 'n agent van Jannie Smut gewees toe hy by die OB aan gesluit het en hy was direk betrokke gewees by die beplanning van Dr Verwoerd se dood.Hy het toe gelaat as Minister van Justusie dat Stafendas toe gelaat was om 'n werk te kon gekry het in die parlament.Sy geheimediens het 'n dik ler gehad oor die Pora baster van Mozambieq wat op sy beurt weer deur die engelse M16 op gelei was hoe om dood te maak met 'n mes.Voster was ook 'n vrymeselaar en 'n CIA agent.

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    Israel denies South African nuclear weapons agreement

    Israel denies South African nuclear weapons agreement

    A UK news website claims Israel intended to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa, but Jerusalem denies the charges.

    Propeller The Guardian news website, citing the work of an American academic, has reported that declassified South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear weapons to the apartheid regime in 1975. The office of Israeli President Shimon Peres, who was defense minister at the time of the alleged agreement, has vehemently denied the claims.

    "There exists no basis in reality for the claims published this morning by The Guardian that in 1975 Israel negotiated, with South Africa, the exchange of nuclear weapons," the president's office said in a statement.

    "Unfortunately, The Guardian elected to write its piece based on the selective interpretation of South African documents and not on concrete facts," said the statement. "Israel has never negotiated the exchange of nuclear weapons with South Africa."

    Israel maintains a policy of “nuclear ambiguity,” neither acknowledging nor denying that it has nuclear weapons.

    Although the Guardian provides documentary “proof” of attempted nuclear collaboration, which shows the signatures of then South African defense minister alongside his Israeli counterpart, the Israeli statement declares: "There exists no Israeli document or Israeli signature on a document that such negotiations took place."

    The documents, uncovered by Sasha Polakow-Suransky, a senior editor with the Council of Foreign Relations, are being hailed in some political quarters as solid proof that Israel has a nuclear stockpile.

    “The South African documents show that the apartheid-era military wanted the missiles as a deterrent and for potential strikes against neighboring states,” The Guardian said.

    The documents seem to prove that both sides met on March 31, 1975, Polakow-Suransky writes in his book, The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's secret alliance with apartheid South Africa. In minutes purportedly taken during the meeting, the Israelis "formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in its arsenal."

    Among those in attendance was the South African military chief of staff, Lieutenant General R.F. Armstrong, who laid out the benefits of South Africa obtaining the Jericho missiles, but only under the condition they were fitted with nuclear weapons.

    According to the Guardian report, the alleged nuclear deal failed to materialize, partly because of the cost.

    But this is not the first time that rumors of nuclear co-operation between South Africa and Israel have been kicked around in the media.

    Back in 1990, the US television network CBS reported on a suspected nuclear test carried out by the two countries after an American satellite detected a mysterious flash over the Indian Ocean.

    Meanwhile, the US academic and aspiring author, whose book hits the newsstands this week, claims that Israel attempted to prevent the secret documents from being declassified.

    "The Israeli Defense Ministry tried to block my access…on the grounds it was sensitive material, especially the signature and the date," Polakow-Suransky said. "The South Africans didn't seem to care; they blacked out a few lines and handed it over to me. The ANC government is not so worried about protecting the dirty laundry of the apartheid regime's old allies."

    Will Israel “come clean”?
    Given the level of global interest in the nuclear weapons issue, instigated by Iran’s nuclear program, as well as US President Barack Obama’s commitment to a “nuclear-free world,” more pressure is being placed on Israel to officially disclose its nuclear stance. But before the recent revelations hit the newsstands, Israel’s defense minister was staunchly defending the country’s policy of nuclear ambiguity.

    "I do not think there is a real or significant danger to Israel's traditional stance of nuclear ambiguity," Ehud Barak told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on May 10th. He then alluded to Iran, and America’s commitment to preventing Israel’s long-term nemesis from acquiring nuclear weapons.

    "The [US] administration is steadfast in preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons," he said. "They are much more active."

    Yet Barak failed to mention that Israel’s commitment to nuclear ambiguity places the United States in an awkward position when it comes to lecturing Iran, and other “rogue states”, on the hazards of obtaining such weapons.

    Ironically, Israel’s suspected nuclear weapons arsenal (which experts have estimated to be in the neighborhood of 200-400 warheads) was placed in a questionable position by America’s recently revised nuclear policy.

    Israel (and America’s) awkward position
    In April, the administration of US President Barack Obama released a revised nuclear policy, called the Nuclear Posture Review, which precludes the use of nuclear weapons “against non-nuclear states that are in compliance with the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.”

    This new qualification, intended to get more countries on board the document, had the added effect of placing Israel – which is not a signatory to the NPT – in the high beams. Since it is nearly universally accepted that Israel has nuclear weapons, Washington’s updated nuclear policy places it squarely in the company of India, Pakistan and North Korea – countries that have tested positive for nuclear weapons yet have not signed on to the document.

    Iran, it should be noted, is a signatory of the NPT, but was found in violation of the document’s safeguards agreement.

    The Obama administration, eager to close the controversy over Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program (which continues to hamper the Middle East peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians), would like to see Israel “come clean” on its nuclear weapons, if only to remove charges of hypocrisy from Tehran and enhance Washington’s ability to resolve the dangerous stand-off by cool diplomacy.

    “So far, none of the non-nuclear weapon states has ever been able to exercise their inalienable and legal right to develop the peaceful use of nuclear energy without facing pressure and threat at some level,” Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in a speech at the United Nations on May 3rd.

    The Iranian leader, unmoved by UN delegates exiting the hall as he spoke, went on to chastise the “Zionist regime,” which he says “stockpiles hundreds of nuclear warheads…with US assistance.”

    Although nothing is really predictable when it comes to the Iranian regime, it is possible to imagine that by Israel coming out of the closet on its nuclear weapons program, as well as becoming a signatory to the NPT, would be the first crucial step in easing tensions between Israel, Iran and the United States.

    Meanwhile, in other nuclear news, an Israeli nuclear whistleblower who spent 18 years in prison for providing evidence that Israel possesses nuclear weapons, is heading back to jail.

    Mordechai Vanunu was taken into custody Sunday for violating the conditions of his 2004 release, which includes not “leaving the country and meeting foreigners.”

    Vanunu’s lawyer told reporters that his client has a Norwegian girlfriend. Israel prison officials say he is to serve three months behind bars.

    Before being led away he shouted, "You didn't get anything from me in 18 years; you won't get anything in 3 months. Shame on you, Israel!”

    Vanunu was a technician at a nuclear plant who leaked details and pictures of the facility to the Sunday Times of London in 1986. On the basis of this material, foreign experts concluded that Israel had a formidable nuclear arsenal.

    Israeli intelligence agents kidnapped Vanunu in Rome and brought him back to Israel, where he was sentenced in a closed-door trial.

    Regarded by peace activists as a hero for taking a stand against weapons of mass destruction and their proliferation, Vanunu has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize on various occasions.
    http://rt.com/Politics/2010-05-24/is...html?fullstory
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
    Die R4 aanvalsgeweer is 'n direkte copy van die joodse Gali geweer en is onder liksensie hier gemaak.Die Gali weer is 'n copy van die AK47 wat die jode
    Nie eintlik nie.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
    ontwerp het na een van hul oorloe.Ek dink nog steeds die R1(308 kaliber)is 'n beter wapen.Die idee van die R4(223 kaliber)het begin toe die Russe die AK74 ontwikkel het en dit in Afganistan gebruik het teen die Taliban.Die dokers in Pakistan het gesien dat die wonde baie erger was as met ander kalibers soos die 308.Blykbaar is die patroon in vlug onstabiel en dit vergroot die wond.Die gedagte agter dit is dat 'n dooie het nie mense nodig om agter hom te kyk nie,maar 'n gewonde het omtrent 7 mense nodig.
    As die wonde groter is, dan is jou kanse om dood te gaan ook groter.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
    Wat die G5 betref,dit was deur 'n briljante Witman ontwerp oorsee,wat toe deur die joodse Mossad vermoor was omrede hy die groot kanonne ontwerp het waarmee ou Saddam die jode mee geskiet het.Dit kon dink ek 'n bom verder as 400 km ver gooi.Die loop was gele gewees binne in 'n skuins gat en het gerus op trein spore om dit te laat draai.Ek dink nie dit kon eintlik baie op en af beweeg het nie.
    Daar was bespiegeling oor so 'n kanon gewees. Onthou julle nog Saddam se WMD.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
    Die Mirage wat toe die Cheeta geword het was deur joodse vlieg engineurs gehelp ontwerp.Hulle het 'n veg vliegtuig vir die jode gebou maar moes dit toe los omrede die jode in die USA gekant was daarteen,want die se vliegtuie word mos verskaf.So die lot is toe deur SA gehuur om die Mirage te verander.In daardie tyd was daar so 'n beriggie gewees oor die baie geld wat hulle ontvang hier in SA.
    Die Mirage was 'n Franse ontwerp. Jy bedoel seker die ontwerpsinligting is deur Joodse spioene gesteel en verder verkwansel.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
    Ja hulle was ook betrokke met die nuclear ontwikkeling in SA.
    Die kernenergie en kernwapens is almal Suid-Afrikaanse ontwerpe. Israel het die items hier gekry.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird View Post
    'n Amerikaanse sateliet het 'n helder lig gesien oor ek dink Mariem eiland en die
    spekulasie was dat ons wel iets soontoe geskiet het.
    Die Voster regering en die na hom het die jode baie gehelp met hul oorloe teen die moslems deur geld toe te laat om die land uit te gaan en ander voorrade en vegters.
    Voster se verraad teen die Boer het 'n lang pad geloop.Hy was 'n agent van Jannie Smut gewees toe hy by die OB aan gesluit het en hy was direk betrokke gewees by die beplanning van Dr Verwoerd se dood.Hy het toe gelaat as Minister van Justusie dat Stafendas toe gelaat was om 'n werk te kon gekry het in die parlament.Sy geheimediens het 'n dik ler gehad oor die Pora baster van Mozambieq wat op sy beurt weer deur die engelse M16 op gelei was hoe om dood te maak met 'n mes.Voster was ook 'n vrymeselaar en 'n CIA agent.
    Dit mag dalk wees dat Suid-Afrika intel by Israel gekry het in ruil vir ander dienste en goedere. Ek dink egter dat was net goeie besigheid uit die Jode se perspektief uit.
    "And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring;..." Plato Politeia

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    In die laat tagtiger/vroeg negentig jare toe Suid Afrika se kernprogram op sy hoogtepunt was het ons met voltooide produk gesit wat indien dit .bekend geword het, ons nog groter moeilikheid kon gegee het as wat ons reeds gehad het. Op daardie stadium was daar 'n groot moontlikheid dat die ANC en die ou aardsterroris se toekomstige rol binne die daaropvolgende paar jaar, dramaties sou verander en dit is toe waar die Irsaeli's vir die eerste keer betrokke raak by ons kernprogram. Dit was met die ontvangs van 'n present...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhardt Maritz View Post
    In die laat tagtiger/vroeg negentig jare toe Suid Afrika se kernprogram op sy hoogtepunt was het ons met voltooide produk gesit wat indien dit .bekend geword het, ons nog groter moeilikheid kon gegee het as wat ons reeds gehad het. Op daardie stadium was daar 'n groot moontlikheid dat die ANC en die ou aardsterroris se toekomstige rol binne die daaropvolgende paar jaar, dramaties sou verander en dit is toe waar die Irsaeli's vir die eerste keer betrokke raak by ons kernprogram. Dit was met die ontvangs van 'n present...
    Jy sal daaroor moet uitbrei, aangesien dit nou ook deel van 'n ander gesprek begin vorm
    "And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring;..." Plato Politeia

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