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Thread: War Crimes Against Germans (WWII)

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    War Crimes Against Germans (WWII)

    I found Skadi Forum while I was searching for war crimes against Germans in WWII. I'm not a nazi. I am, however, a history buff, interested in the objective truth. The thread I found Skadi through is called "Germany's forgotten victims" and it contains a lot of material about Allied atrocities against German civilians. When I looked for the sources, unfortunately, I found out they were from known revisionist or racist websites.

    Where could I find sources, which would be acceptable to be cited in a university paper, without being accused of nazi sympathizing?

    /Travis

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    Discussing German victims is seen as revisionist itself, and is only acceptable as non-nazi if you come up with a politically correct explanation like that these civilians were victims because of NS, who gave the Allies no choice.

    But, have you looked through all the sources and every single one was nazi? I doubt it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I found Skadi Forum while I was searching for war crimes against Germans in WWII. I'm not a nazi. I am, however, a history buff, interested in the objective truth. The thread I found Skadi through is called "Germany's forgotten victims" and it contains a lot of material about Allied atrocities against German civilians. When I looked for the sources, unfortunately, I found out they were from known revisionist or racist websites.

    Where could I find sources, which would be acceptable to be cited in a university paper, without being accused of nazi sympathizing?

    /Travis
    Hi Travis,

    It is very difficult to find a non-biased page on this subject, as many are very emotional about this. The "Hitler Historical Museum" is probably the best that you will find. I hope this helps. Good Luck!

    Introduction
    The Hitler Historical Museum is a non-biased, non-profit museum devoted to the study and preservation of the world history related to Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Party. True to its role as an educational museum, these exhibits allow for visitors to understand and examine historical documents and information for themselves. The museum, while acknowledging the tragedy that over 50 million people died during World War 2, retains its non-biased status by refraining from making political judgments of any sort. Neither does it make the standard, uninformative, and cliched historical judgement that the victor of the war was "good" and that the loser of the war was "bad." Instead, all materials and resources are provided as a documentation of the time period and as scholastic resources with notes for clarification. No biased judgments, slanderous labels or childish name calling exist here as they do in most of the writings on this topic.

    The Museum's chief concern is to provide documents and information that shed light on Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Party. Because of the numerous contradicting, disjoint, biased, confused, and deficient interpretations that exist, few scholars are able to gather the facts and to understand and explain them coherently. Whether this failure is from a lack of information, scholarship ability, or honesty is unimportant. What is important is that historical information be made freely available and gathered into exhibits that allow researchers to derive indepedent conclusions from the relatively well preserved writings of this time period.

    Ideological Statement
    The teaching of history should convey only facts and be free from political motives, personal opinions, biases, propaganda, and other common tactics of distortion. Every claim that is made about history should also be accompanied by documentation proving its basis. Only responsible scholarship and teaching should be permitted. Those who intend to support particular political interests and agendas should have their biased historical interpretations criticized for lacking proof.
    Retrieved From:http://www.hitler.org/index.html

    This page dedicated to Rudolf Hess is well put together, as well.

    In brief: Rudolf Hess (1894-1987), Deputy Führer and considered to be the number 3 man in Hitler's Germany after Göring. Hess was a somewhat neurotic member of Hitler's inner circle best known for his surprise flight to Scotland on May 10, 1941 in which he intended to negotiate peace with the British, but which resulted in his capture and long term imprisonment.



    Rudolf Hess was born in Alexandria, Egypt, April 26, 1894, the son of a prosperous wholesaler and exporter. He did not live in Germany until he was fourteen. He volunteered for the German Army in 1914 at the outbreak of World War One, partly to escape the control of his domineering father who had refused to let him go to a university but instead persuaded him into an unwanted career in the family business.

    In World War One, Hess was wounded twice, then later became an airplane pilot. After the war, Hess joined the Freikorps, a right-wing organization of ex-soldiers for hire, involved in violently putting down Communist uprisings in Germany.

    At the University of Munich, Hess studied political science and came under the influence of the Thule Society, a secret anti-Semitic political organization devoted to Nordic supremacy. Hess was also influenced by Professor Karl Haushofer, a former general whose theories on expansionism and race formed the basis of the concept of Lebensraum (increased living space for Germans at the expense of other nations).

    After hearing Adolf Hitler speak in a small Munich beer hall, Hess joined the Nazi Party, July 1, 1920, becoming the sixteenth member. After his first meeting with Hitler, Hess said he felt "as though overcome by a vision."

    At early Nazi Party meetings and rallies, Hess was a formidable fighter who brawled with para-military Marxists and others who often violently attempted to disrupt Hitler's speeches.

    In 1923, Hess took part in Hitler's failed Beer Hall Putsch in which Hitler and the Nazis attempted to seize control of Germany. Hess was arrested and imprisoned along with Hitler at Landsberg prison. While in prison, Hess took dictation for Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, and also made some editorial suggestions regarding Lebensraum, the historical role of the British Empire, and the organization of the Nazi Party.

    After his release from prison in 1925, Hess served for several years as Hitler's personal secretary in spite of having no official rank in the Nazi Party. In 1932, Hitler appointed him Chairman of the Central Political Commission of the Nazi Party and SS General as a reward for his loyal service. On April 21, 1933, he was made Deputy Führer, a figurehead position with mostly ceremonial duties.

    Hess was a shy, insecure man who displayed near religious devotion, fanatical loyalty and absolute blind obedience to Hitler. In 1934, Hess gave a revealing speech stating - "With pride we see that one man remains beyond all criticism, that is the Führer. This is because everyone feels and knows: he is always right, and he will always be right. The National Socialism of all of us is anchored in uncritical loyalty, in the surrender to the Führer that does not ask for the why in individual cases, in the silent execution of his orders. We believe that the Führer is obeying a higher call to fashion German history. There can be no criticism of this belief."

    One of his most visible tasks was to announce the Führer at mass meetings with bellowing, wide eyed fanaticism, as seen in the Nazi documentary, Triumph Of The Will.

    Although often rewarded by Hitler for his dogged loyalty, Hess was never given any major influence in matters of state due to his lack of understanding of the mechanics of power and his inability to take any action on his own initiative. He was totally and deliberately subservient to his Führer.

    He was granted titles such as Reich Minister without Portfolio, member of the Secret Cabinet Council, and member of the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense. In 1939 Hess was even designated to be Hitler's successor after Göring.

    But over time, his limited power was further undermined by the political intrigue of the top Nazis around Hitler who were constantly scheming for personal power. Hess had only one desire, to serve the Führer, and thus lacked the will to engage in self serving struggles for power and lost out primarily to his subordinate and eventual successor, Martin Bormann. As a result, Hitler gradually distanced himself from Hess.

    Hoping to regain importance and redeem himself in the eyes of his Führer, Hess put on a Luftwaffe uniform and flew a German fighter plane alone toward Scotland on a 'peace' mission, May 10, 1941, just before the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. Hess intended to see the Duke of Hamilton, who he had met briefly during the Berlin Olympics in 1936.
    Full Article:http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...s/hess-bio.htm

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    Hello Travis,
    Any mainstream site you come across that is "sympathetic" will always downplay the numerous tragedies that occured in Germany during and after the war. They give you only the facts that could not possibly be hidden from the public. You will find plenty of articles and photos about the bombed out cities but read almost nothing of the personal horror stories told by those Germans who survived them or of the despicable way in which they were treated afterwards. I could recommend you do a search about Eisenhower's death camps, but the only sites you will find that give an honest account have all been conveniently labeled as hate sites by the ADL as well as the treasonous governments of Europe.

    I'm afraid that you will not find a single site that makes this era in Germanic history any less "Nazi". If you were to find one then I can assure you that it will not be very long before the anti-racist factions that rule this world will add it to their list of sites that are not to be trusted and avoided at all costs, making it impossible for you to reference them without being suspected yourself.

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    After some searching, I had found some more excellent articles. One of them is actually from "Wikipedia"! I often wonder why Josef Stalin got out of being tried for "War Crimes"! Actually, I know why, but that is a different subject entirely.

    Allied war crimes were violations of the laws of war committed by the Allies of World War II against civilian populations or military personnel of the Axis Powers.

    At the end of World War II, several trials of Axis war criminals took place, most famously the Nuremberg Trials. However, in Europe, these tribunals were set up under the authority of the London Charter, and could only consider allegations of war crimes committed by persons who acted in the interests of the European Axis countries.

    There were a number of alleged war crimes involving Allied personnel that were investigated by the Allied powers and that led in some instances to courts-martial. Other incidents are alleged by historians to have been crimes under the law of war in operation at the time, but that for a variety of reasons were not investigated by the Allied powers during the war, or they were investigated and a decision was taken not to prosecute.
    Full Article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_...g_World_War_II

    Allied War Crimes And Crimes
    Against Humanity 1945-1950

    By Rixon Stewart
    rixonx@netscapeonline.co.uk
    1-28-2


    They say that the spoils of war go to the victors and that includes the opportunity to rewrite history from the victor,s point of view. This is particularly true of World War 2 where for the last fifty years one overall theme has dominated; namely that the allies were the good guys in contrast to the Germans who were Nazi war criminals. But was this really the case? Was the distinction so clear-cut or have we allowed Allied propagandists to reshape our view of history? Until recently anyone who questioned this standard interpretation was immediately labeled a "revisionist" or worse still a "Nazi": as happened to British historian David Irving recently. Yet with the passage of time a new perspective is beginning to emerge, one that is not so clear-cut in its distinction between good and bad.

    When Germany surrendered in May 1945, the American Military Governor, General Eisenhower, sent out an "urgent courier" with instructions making it a crime punishable by DEATH to feed German prisoners. It was even a capital offence to gather food together in one place to take to prisoners. The message reads in part:

    "Under no circumstances may food supplies be assembled among the local inhabitants in order to deliver them to prisoners of war. Those who violate this command and nevertheless try to circumvent this blockade to allow something to come to the prisoners place themselves in danger of being shot."(1)

    This was no idle threat. On July 31st 1945 Agnes Spira was shot by French guards at Dietersheim for taking food to prisoners. This was, in effect, a deliberate policy to starve the German prisoners of war. Many prisoners and German civilians saw American guards burn food that had been brought to the prisoners. According to one former prisoner who described it recently: "At first, the women from the nearby town brought food into the camp. The American soldiers took everything away from the women, threw it in a heap and poured gasoline over it and burned it." (2)

    In the chaos and confusion that followed Germany,s defeat at the end of the Second World War literally millions of Germans died. In an unprecedented humanitarian disaster an estimated sixteen million ethnic Germans fled their ancestral homelands in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and other parts of Eastern Europe to Germany. These were mostly women, children and elderly men who took to the open road before the advancing Red Army. Of these Canadian historian James Bacque estimates that between two and six million died in the process (3). Millions more died in Germany itself through a combination of disease, exposure and starvation, produced and compounded by deliberate Allied policies.

    Full Article:http://www.rense.com/general19/huma.htm

    Soviet Union:
    "Naked women were nailed through their hands"


    At the edge of the town, on the left side of the road, stands the large inn 'Weisser Krug' ... In the farmyard further down the road stood a cart, to which four naked women were nailed through their hands in a cruciform position. Behind the Weisser Krug towards Gumbinnen is a square with a monument to the Unknown Soldier. Beyond is another larger inn, 'Roter Krug'. Near it, parallel to the road, stood a barn and to each of its two doors a naked woman was nailed through the hands, in a crucified posture. In the dwellings we found a total of seventy-two women, including children, and one old man, 74, all dead... all murdered in a bestial manner, except only for a few who had bullet holes in their necks. Some babies had their heads bashed in. In one room we found a woman, 84 years old, sitting on a sofa... half of whose head had been sheared off with an axe or a spade...

    We carried the corpses to the village cemetery where they lay to await a foreign medical commission... In the meantime, a nurse from Insterburg came, a native of Nemmersdorf, who looked for her parents. Among the corpses were her mother, 72, and her father, 74, the only man among the dead. She also established that all the dead were Nemmersdorfers. On the fourth day the bodies were buried in two graves. Only on the following day did the medical commission arrive, and the tombs had to be reopened. Barn doors were set on blocks on which to lay the bodies so that the commission could examine them. This foreign commission unanimously established that all the women, as well as the girls from eight to twelve years and even the woman of 84 years had been raped. After the examination by the commission, the bodies were again buried.

    (Alfred M. de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam: The Expulsion of the Germans from the East, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln and London. 1988. p.63 -64)
    Retrieved From:http://www.gnosticliberationfront.co...on naked women

    Revealed - UK Wartime Torture Camp

    By Ian Cobain The Guardian 11-14-5

    The British government operated a secret torture centre during the second world war to extract information and confessions from German prisoners, according to official papers which have been unearthed by the Guardian.

    More than 3,000 prisoners passed through the centre, where many were systematically beaten, deprived of sleep, forced to stand still for more than 24 hours at a time and threatened with execution or unnecessary surgery.

    Some are also alleged to have been starved and subjected to extremes of temperature in specially built showers, while others later complained that they had been threatened with electric shock torture or menaced by interrogators brandishing red-hot pokers.

    The centre, which was housed in a row of mansions in one of London's most affluent neighbourhoods, was carefully concealed from the Red Cross, the papers show. It continued to operate for three years after the war, during which time a number of German civilians were also tortured. A subsequent assessment by MI5, the Security Service, concluded that the commanding officer had been guilty of "clear breaches" of the Geneva convention and that some interrogation methods "completely contradicted" international law.

    On at least one occasion, an MI5 officer noted in a newly declassified report, a German prisoner was convicted of war crimes and hanged on the basis of a confession which he had signed after he was, at the very least, "worked on psychologically". A number of people who appeared as prosecution witnesses at war crimes trials are also alleged to have been tortured.

    The official papers, discovered in the National Archives, depict the centre as a dark, brutal place which caused great unease among senior British officers. They appear to have turned a blind eye partly because of the usefulness of the information extracted, and partly because the detainees were thought to deserve ill treatment.

    Not all the torture centre's secrets have yet emerged, however: the Ministry of Defence is continuing to withhold some of the papers almost 60 years after it was closed down.

    © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005
    Retrieved From:http://www.gnosticliberationfront.co...I.htm#Revealed

    American Atrocities in Germany
    By JUDGE EDWARD L VAN RODEN

    AMERICAN investigators at the U. S. Court in Dachau, Germany, used the following methods to obtain confessions: Beatings and brutal kickings. Knocking out teeth and breaking jaws. Mock trials. Solitary confinement. Posturing as priests. Very limited rations. Spiritual deprivation. Promises of acquittal.

    Complaints concerning these third degree methods were received by Secretary of the Army Kenneth Royall last Spring. Royall appointed Justice Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court and me to go to Germany and check up on the reports.

    Accompanied by Lt. Col. Charles Lawrence. Jr., we went to Munich, Germany, set up offices there, and heard a stream of testimony about the way in which American atrocities were committed.

    But first, a bit of the background. Last Spring the Supreme Court refused the habeas corpus petition of Col. Willis N. Everett. Jr., an American lawyer, who had served as defense counsel for the 74 Germans accused in the famous Malmedy case. Everett is a very able lawyer, a conscientious and sincere gentleman. He is not a fanatic.

    In his petition. Everett charged that the Germans had not received a fair trial. Everett did not claim that all the German defendants were innocent, but since they did not have a fair trial, there was no way of telling the innocent from the guilty.

    The tragedy is that so many of us Americans, having fought and won the war with so much sweat and blood, now say. "All Germans should be punished". We won the war, but some of us want to go on killing. That seems to me wicked.

    If Everett's shocking charges were true, they would be a blot on the American conscience for eternity. The fact that there were atrocities by the Germans during the war against Americans, or by Americans against Germans, would not in the least lessen our disgrace if such peacetime atrocities were to go unchallenged.

    Our specific assignment was not only to examine Col. Everett's charges, but also to examine the cases of the 139 death sentences, which at that time remained unexecuted: 152 Germans had already been executed.

    The 139 doomed men who were still alive fell into three groups. They were accused of involvement in the Dachau concentration camp crimes, in the killing of American fliers, or in the Malmedy massacres. Let me say that I believe the crimes for which these Germans were tried actually took place, and that some Germans were guilty of them.

    But we should not let the indiscriminate hate of all Germans that was generated during and after the war, blind us to the necessity of punishing the guilty ones only.

    After this investigation, and after talking to all sides, I do not believe that the German people knew what the German Government was doing. I am convinced the German populace had no idea what diabolical crimes that arch-fiend, Himmler, was committing in the concentration camps. From the atrocities we learned about, he must have been the very prince of devils.

    But as for the Germans at large, they fought the war as loyal citizens with a fatherland to support, and a fatherland to defend.

    Some American fliers, shot down on bombing raids over Germany. were killed by German civilians.

    These Germans felt that the American fliers were the murderers of their defenseless wives, mothers, and children who were In the bombed cities’ - just as the English felt that German fliers were their murderers. That's war.
    Full Article:http://www.gnosticliberationfront.co...ies in germany

    FALLOUT: A Historian Reflects on
    America's Half-Century Encounter With
    Nuclear Weapons.

    By Paul Boyer.

    Ohio State. 268 pp. Paper $17.95.

    INDIA AND PAKISTAN HAVE THE BOMB NOW, and the cheering crowds in New Delhi and Islamabad have turned out to affirm that it is a good thing, a necessity, a rite of passage into national military adulthood. The Old Bombers Network of existing nuclear powers, fiercely resistant to any suggestion that they eliminate their own huge arsenals, have reacted with dismay. Nuclear weapons, after all, are to have and to hold (by us), not to be possessed by newcomers. With no acknowledgment of irony, they have even suggested that India and Pakistan have done something immoral. So, fifty-three years after Hiroshima, a billion or so more human beings live directly under its shadow--not counting the hundreds of millions of Southeast Asians who live downwind.

    What has been curiously missing from the resulting international outbreak of finger-wagging is any detailed new discussion of what nuclear weapons--all nuclear weapons, not just those of India and Pakistan--actually do when they are used. One virtue of Hiroshima's Shadow--the book, edited by Kai Bird and Lawrence Lifschultz--is that it does more than recall the agony of the victims. It is focused, instead, on something subtler: the long-lasting moral damage to those who choose deliberately to obliterate hundreds of thousands of civilian lives at a single stroke, and then try to justify that choice. Only one nation has made that choice, and struggled to defend it, and so Hiroshima's Shadow, while giving due attention to what happened to the Japanese, is mostly about a uniquely American experience. What happened to the Japanese is well-known. What happened to us deserves the scrutiny that this book provides.

    It is important, nevertheless, to begin by recalling the physical reality. Among the thousands of photographs, paintings and other artifacts of what happened on August 6, 1945--those images, now familiar everywhere in the world, of bleeding children, twisted buildings, grotesque figures walking across miles of rubble--there is one that is unique. It is the picture of a shadow burned into concrete, the only remnant of a person vaporized in the 5,000-degree heat of the first seconds after Little Boy exploded. It is all that is left of what might be named Hiroshima's Unknown Civilian, a ghostly doorman at the entrance to the nuclear age.

    That shadow speaks to the reality of Hiroshima. But the bomb, and the one that followed three days later over Nagasaki, instantly cast another shadow that has darkened the succeeding half-century, even as Little Boy proliferated into what one scientist has called "a monster with 70,000 heads," the global nuclear arsenal at its peak. It is the wrenching, persistent concern that Hiroshima (and, by extension, all nuclear weapons) represented the crossing of an invisible moral line. It has engendered innumerable debates and created myths, legends and rationalizations that have been intensified, in America, by the knowledge that the United States is the only nation that has actually used nuclear weapons to destroy human populations. The "official" story of Hiroshima became an American legend, wrapped in our historical consciousness--but threatened by historical scholarship that has increasingly eroded claims that the United States acted correctly, even morally. Hiroshima's Shadow is a response to the latest battle over that legend.

    The facts of that battle are straightforward. As the fiftieth anniversary of the end of World War II approached, the curators of the Smithsonian Institution--America's principal national museum--decided to commemorate the occasion with an exhibit that would have chronicled the origins of the war and its final act, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The planned exhibition in the National Air and Space Museum was to include the fuselage of the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the bomb over Hiroshima. An elaborate multi-gallery display, including but not limited to portrayals of the human and material damage, was to be accompanied by an elaborate script that, among many other things, examined the complexity surrounding President Truman's decision to proceed with the attack on Hiroshima and included some statements critical of the use of the bomb.
    Full Article:http://www.gnosticliberationfront.co...roshima shadow

    Soviet Union:
    "Mass Graves containing the bodies of 12,500"


    Investigators digging at the site of a Soviet-run prison camp in the former East Germany have uncovered mass graves containing the bodies of 12,500 people, the Brandenburg state government said today.

    The camp was at Sachsenhausen, north of Berlin, and was open from 1945 to 1950. Victims were said to have included real and supposed supporters of the defeated Third Reich, as well as citizens considered unfriendly to Communist authorities.

    Until the Communist Government of East Germany collapsed in 1990, it was impossible to conduct research like that now under way at Sachsenhausen. Similar excavations are underway at other sites, and officials expect further discoveries like the one announced today.

    The excavation around Sachsenhausen revealed 50 graves, each about 25 feet long and 13 feet wide. Under the earth, bodies were stacked in heaps as high as 15 feet and higher.

    Pathologists have determined that most of the victims died of starvation, exposure or communicable diseases. Some had evidently been beaten. Most were children, adolescents and elderly people.

    In the years after the end of World War II, occupying Soviet forces imprisoned thousands of Germans. Many were accused of war crimes, and their trials were perfunctory if they were held at all. Some were simply picked off the street, victims of Stalinist crackdowns.

    The victims were taken to one of a network of prison camps. Some of them, like the one at Sachsenhausen and another at Buchenwald, were built on the sites of Nazi concentration camps.

    The German Government estimated that 65,000 people died in those Soviet run camps or in transportation to them.

    During the four decades of Communist rule in East Germany, memorials were built at places like Sachsenhausen and Buchenwald. But the memorials implied that the camps closed at the war's end. They did not mention that in the post-Nazi era, the camps became brutal Soviet-run military prisons.

    Source : The New York Times - September 24, 1992
    Retrieved From:http://www.gnosticliberationfront.co...on mass graves

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    Non nazi websites are those that don't have a political agenda like white supremacism or support Holocaust revisionism, like the Institute for Historical Review, Jeff Rense Program, American Renaissance, National Alliance, National Vanguard, etc. or historians like David Irving.

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    The crux is not to speak of war crimes against Germans, but of war crimes by the Allies and the Sovjets. If you use "unbiased" sources on the latter way of tackling it, I suppose you could always reason it without being pidgeon-holed.

    My liberal-left father is one of those. He is constantly shocked about the crimes supposedly committed by Germans against others, but he is equally shocked about the crimes committed by Allies and Sovjets, as he considers unnecessary murders of civilians generally "not on".

    I suppose it's all a matter of general tone and wording, as you have to be careful. If you want to downplay the Holocaust, don't actually go around denying it, compile a work on "genocides throughout history" and people'll be shocked that the Jews essentially killing off all others already resident there when they first ventured to their promised land as well. One calls that "psychological revisionism"
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    If you want to downplay the Holocaust, don't actually go around denying it, compile a work on "genocides throughout history" and people'll be shocked that the Jews essentially killing off all others already resident there when they first ventured to their promised land as well. One calls that "psychological revisionism"
    I have tried this and the reaction I got was not shock at the jewish role in holocausts of the past (I use the Ukrainian and Armenian examples) but shock at my own audacity.

    Any time I mentioned "jew" and "holocaust" in the same sentence people visibly tensed up. Unless you make it pretty clear that you believe it happened then you run the risk of being accused of anti-semitism, no matter how much evidence is presented.
    It doesn't help that the media has portrayed all holocaust deniers as inhuman cranks who obnoxiously wave their Nazi theories in everybody's faces. This is how most people want to see it. Any attempt to break this indocrination will only confuse or anger them.

    Even people who might secretly agree with you will put up the facade of indignation for appearance sake, either as a knee-jerk reaction or out of fear that you are a provocateur.
    It has reached a point where people are horrified even at the prospect of trusting others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    I have tried this and the reaction I got was not shock at the jewish role in holocausts of the past (I use the Ukrainian and Armenian examples) but shock at my own audacity.
    I mean the one when they claimed their promised land in biblical times. You start out by saying that of course this shouldn't downplay any of the evil deeds "those evil Nutzis" performed, but that it is important that we also don't forget the other crimes against humanity around the world.

    If they try to deny Pol Pot's reign of terror, the Holodomor, Stalin's Gulag or such things, then they're going to be hard pressed to find arguments, because you can provide hundreds and hundreds of examples. You don't talk about Jewish involvement here.

    But after your discussion has gone on for two or three hours and it becomes "blatantly obvious" that you're "not biased" but "just believe that all types of genocides are wrong, and equally wrong" then you can throw in Jewish involvement, or full Jewish holocausts, like the biblically praised one. Because at that stage, if you two are still discussing, he will "know" that you're really just a pacifist and stuff like that.

    Believe it or not, it's worked with me often enough. I don't know how I do it, but I usually always manage to wrestle my way out of the "reductio ad hitlerum" attempts, and then can inform people about these types of things. Could be though that it's because I've long started to talk to "normal next door people" about these matters rather than known left-liberal punks.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Nachtengel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    If you want to downplay the Holocaust, don't actually go around denying it, compile a work on "genocides throughout history" and people'll be shocked that the Jews essentially killing off all others already resident there when they first ventured to their promised land as well. One calls that "psychological revisionism"
    Downplaying the Holocaust counts as Holocaust denial under the law, especially comparing it to other genocides, and especially if war crimes by Allies are mentioned in the same context.

    As I said, unless you specifically mention that you believe in the Holocaust and condemn it, you will be seen as a Holocaust denier and/or anti-Semite. There are documentaries about German civilians who died at the hands of the Allies on mainstream TV channels, but it is always said, sometimes even by the witnesses and survivors, that the true responsible for the crimes were Hitler and the NS, because the war was their fault in the first place and so forth.

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