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Thread: War Crimes Against Germans (WWII)

  1. #21
    Senior Member prodeutsch's Avatar
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    So much to talk about, so little time. However, I do have a gift to point out the obvious....The last time I looked Nazi Germany attacked Russia first, declared war on the US after pearl harbor. If you don't like what Germany is become, blame grandparents/parents and do something about it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    The last time I looked Nazi Germany attacked Russia first, declared war on the US after pearl harbor.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    If you don't like what Germany is become, blame grandparents/parents
    We are judged by our ancestors, not the other way around. We have not reached their height, not since US style liberal democracy was forced on Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    and do something about it!
    Of course. That is why I suggest that breaking America's will to resist us is more important than contemplating our alleged war crimes and destroying our own will to live.

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    Any kind of denial or revision of the jewish presented version (of the holohoax) in the USA will gain you public ridicule.If you do this in Germany/Austria and many other countries in Europe they throw you in jail; just ask David Irving.To hear stories about the wartime suffering of Germanic people is usually documented as "they deserved it" "they brought it on themselves" "Hitler had to be stopped at all costs" ect. ect. In the USA the juden have totally written the endorsed history of WW2.Fortunately you can still aquire books that shows our (the Germanic) side.The United States government can totally manufacture lies in order to invade and occupy Irak to get the oil and protect israel and that is ok ,but if the Germans invade the Soviet Union to stop communism then Hitler and his Germany are "madmen" and "ruthless killers" ect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    Downplaying the Holocaust counts as Holocaust denial under the law, especially comparing it to other genocides, and especially if war crimes by Allies are mentioned in the same context.
    That's why you don't downplay it, but instead hint towards other war crimes and genocides. The question whether 300 or 6,000,000 Jews died at the hands of Germans ultimately doesn't matter since we shouldn't suffer from a guilt complex over such matters.

    My ancestors who were adults in the relevant time were almost exclusively very vigorous National Socialists, but had no part in any supposed crimes. As such, I feel no personal reason to be shamed about anything that happened. Those whose ancestors were perhaps involved in such things will have to deal with that instead, but ideally should come to the conclusion that it does not matter what their ancestors may or may not have done, if they feel shame about it, they shouldn't feel guilt over what cannot be changed, but instead hope to do it different. I.e. ideally they should be future-orientated, not past-orientated in their interpretation of history.

    The hinting at other genocides and war crimes - irrespective of the Holocaust, is still important however, because it allows people, should they be receptive to it, to both to be shielded against further Allied propaganda and to evaluate any potential harmful deeds by their ancestors as having happening in the heat of the moment and as not atypical for the difficult circumstances they found themselves in. Thus, hinting at Allied war crimes is absolutely quintessential to receiving a more unbiased perception of Contemporary History.

    As I said, unless you specifically mention that you believe in the Holocaust and condemn it, you will be seen as a Holocaust denier and/or anti-Semite.
    I state often enough that I condemn all types of unjustifiable mass killing, whether that means I "believe" in the Holocaust or not is absolutely up to the listener to interpret, and even if he interprets that in the negative, then there is no evidence to prove that I have actively denied anything. Passive denial by association is not punishable as such.

    If asked directly, I will add that the intention is not to downplay crimes by Germans but to highlight that other sides weren't exactly the vanguard of moral warfare either, this helps people to understand the psyche of people in wartime in general. This again is an ambiguous answer out of which a court charge cannot credibly be constructed if the judge is interested in a fair trial at least as far as maxims of the law are concerned.

    There are documentaries about German civilians who died at the hands of the Allies on mainstream TV channels, but it is always said, sometimes even by the witnesses and survivors, that the true responsible for the crimes were Hitler and the NS, because the war was their fault in the first place and so forth.
    That's why more important than historical revisionism as such is that you rid people of that guilt complex. If people don't feel guilt about what "evil Hitler and those evil Nutzis" may have done, then all this preaching will fall on deaf ears, and what people will be left with is the neutral unbiased conclusion that "all's fair in love and war" and that that maxim was used pretty liberally by all sides to the conflict to psychologically damage an opponent.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I found Skadi Forum while I was searching for war crimes against Germans in WWII. I'm not a nazi. I am, however, a history buff, interested in the objective truth. The thread I found Skadi through is called "Germany's forgotten victims" and it contains a lot of material about Allied atrocities against German civilians. When I looked for the sources, unfortunately, I found out they were from known revisionist or racist websites.

    Where could I find sources, which would be acceptable to be cited in a university paper, without being accused of nazi sympathizing?

    /Travis

    An Eye for an Eye - John Sack
    Onward Christian Soldiers - Donald Day
    Innocent at Dachau - Joseph Halow
    Truth for Germany - Udo Walendy
    The Hoax of the Twentieth Century - AR Butz


    I think that most of these books are still available on the net.

    Gert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I found Skadi Forum while I was searching for war crimes against Germans in WWII. I'm not a nazi.
    Hello, Travis!

    Good for you but why do you feel you have to tell us what you are not when researching the genocide of Germans? Do you believe that everyone who accepts the historical truth is a Nazi? Can you give me ten more things you ain't? Not that I care.

    I am, however, a history buff, interested in the objective truth. The thread I found Skadi through is called "Germany's forgotten victims" and it contains a lot of material about Allied atrocities against German civilians. When I looked for the sources, unfortunately, I found out they were from known revisionist or racist websites.
    Even if these sites would be "revisionist" or "racist," it doesn't mean they are wrong in everything they say. If a "revisionist" says "2+2=4," then the result isn't wrong just because he is called a "revisionist."

    Where could I find sources, which would be acceptable to be cited in a university paper, without being accused of nazi sympathizing?
    Yikes! The n-word! Scary, scary! You better run and hide. I wouldn't consider name calling a scientific refutation of facts, though.

    There are two "historical truths": the first "truth" is established by the victors and the people in power. This kind of truth you can publish at their universities without being sanctioned. And then there is the second truth which narrates the secret story of what had really happened. My advice: If you want good marks, make a career, or are afraid to be called names, don't get your fingers burnt.

    Non nazi websites are those that don't have a political agenda like white supremacism or support Holocaust revisionism, like the Institute for Historical Review, Jeff Rense Program, American Renaissance, National Alliance, National Vanguard, etc. or historians like David Irving.
    Are you saying that the ADL, the SPLC, the Nizkor Project, the CFR, the AIPAC, the Democrats, the Republicans, today's universities, etc., or historians like Deborah Lipstadt don't have a political agenda?
    The answer to 1984 is 1776.

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    I'm currently reading David Irving's Nuremberg - The Last Battle. It is an excellent read about the hypocrisy of the war crimes trials and goes into some detail about war crimes against the Germans both during and sadly after the war.

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    I've also been reading about this subject F.G. and below is one of many stories of Allied atrocities. To think that people such as these were sitting in righteous judgement of others at Nuremburg and professing to be the defenders of civilization ...

    A U.S. Prison Guard Tells His Story

    By Martin Brech

    The Journal of Historical Review, vol. 10, no. 2, pp. 161-166, 12-3-9

    In late March or early April, 1945, I was sent to guard a POW camp near Andernach along the Rhine. I had four years of high school German, so I was able to talk to the prisoners, although this was forbidden. Gradually, however, I was used as an interpreter and asked to ferret out members of the S.S. (I found none.)

    In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets; many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring and their misery from exposure alone was evident.

    Even more shocking was to see the prisoners throwing grass and weeds into a tin can containing a thin soup. They told me they did this to help ease their hunger pains. Quickly, they grew emaciated. Dysentery raged, and soon they were sleeping in their own excrement, too weak and crowded to reach the slit trenches. Many were begging for food, sickening and dying before our eyes. We had ample food and supplies, but did nothing to help them, including no medical assistance.

    Outraged, I protested to my officers and was met with hostility or bland indifference. When pressed, they explained they were under strict orders from "higher up." No officer would dare do this to 50,000 men if he felt that it was "out of line," leaving him open to charges. Realizing my protests were useless, I asked a friend working in the kitchen if he could slip me some extra food for the prisoners. He too said they were under strict orders to severely ration the prisoners' food and that these orders came from "higher up." But he said they had more food than they knew what to do with and would sneak me some.

    When I threw this food over the barbed wire to the prisoners, I was caught and threatened with imprisonment. I repeated the "offense," and one officer angrily threatened to shoot me. I assumed this was a bluff until I encountered a captain on a hill above the Rhine shooting down at a group of German civilian women with his .45 caliber pistol. When I asked, Why?," he mumbled, "Target practice," and fired until his pistol was empty. I saw the women running for cover, but, at that distance, couldn't tell if any had been hit.

    This is when I realized I was dealing with cold-blooded killers filled with moralistic hatred. They considered the Germans subhuman and worthy of extermination; another expression of the downward spiral of racism. Articles in the G.I. newspaper, Stars and Stripes, played up the German concentration camps, complete with photos of emaciated bodies; this amplified our self-righteous cruelty and made it easier to imitate behavior we were supposed to oppose. Also, I think, soldiers not exposed to combat were trying to prove how tough they were by taking it out on the prisoners and civilians.

    These prisoners, I found out, were mostly farmers and workingmen, as simple and ignorant as many of our own troops. As time went on, more of them lapsed into a zombie-like state of listlessness, while others tried to escape in a demented or suicidal fashion, running through open fields in broad daylight towards the Rhine to quench their thirst. They were mowed down.Some prisoners were as eager for cigarettes as for food, saying they took the edge off their hunger. Accordingly, enterprising G.I. "Yankee traders" were acquiring hordes of watches and rings in exchange for handfuls of cigarettes or less. When I began throwing cartons of cigarettes to the prisoners to ruin this trade, I was threatened by rank-and-file G.I.s too.

    The only bright spot in this gloomy picture came one night when.I was put on the "graveyard shift," from two to four A.M. Actually, there was a graveyard on the uphill side of this enclosure, not many yards away. My superiors had forgotten to give me a flashlight and I hadn't bothered to ask for one, disgusted as I was with the whole situation by that time. It was a fairly bright night and I soon became aware of a prisoner crawling under the wires towards the graveyard. We were supposed to shoot escapees on sight, so I started to get up from the ground to warn him to get back. Suddenly I noticed another prisoner crawling from the graveyard back to the enclosure. They were risking their lives to get to the graveyard for something; I had to investigate.

    When I entered the gloom of this shrubby, tree-shaded cemetery, I felt completely vulnerable, but somehow curiosity kept me moving. Despite my caution, I tripped over the legs of someone in a prone position. Whipping my rifle around while stumbling and trying to regain composure of mind and body, I soon was relieved I hadn't reflexively fired. The figure sat up. Gradually, I could see the beautiful but terror-stricken face of a woman with a picnic basket nearby. German civilians were not allowed to feed, nor even come near the prisoners, so I quickly assured her I approved of what she was doing, not to be afraid, and that I would leave the graveyard to get out of the way.

    I did so immediately and sat down, leaning against a tree at the edge of the cemetery to be inconspicuous and not frighten the prisoners. I imagined then, and still do now, what it would be like to meet a beautiful woman with a picnic basket, under those conditions as a prisoner. I have never forgotten her face.

    Eventually, more prisoners crawled back to the enclosure. I saw they were dragging food to their comrades and could only admire their courage and devotion.

    On May 8, V.E. Day, I decided to celebrate with some prisoners I was guarding who were baking bread the other prisoners occasionally received. This group had all the bread they could eat, and shared the jovial mood generated by the end of the war. We all thought we were going home soon, a pathetic hope on their part. We were in what was to become the French zone, where I soon would witness the brutality of the French soldiers when we transferred our prisoners to them for their slave labor camps.

    On this day, however, we were happy.

    As a gesture of friendliness, I emptied my rifle and stood it in the corner, even allowing them to play with it at their request! This thoroughly "broke the ice," and soon we were singing songs we taught each other or I had learned in high school German ("Du, du liegst mir im Herzen"). Out of gratitude, they baked me a special small loaf of sweet bread, the only possible present they had left to offer. I stuffed it in my "Eisenhower jacket" and snuck it back to my barracks, eating it when I had privacy. I have never tasted more delicious bread, nor felt a deeper sense of communion while eating it. I believe a cosmic sense of Christ (the Oneness of all Being) revealed its normally hidden presence to me on that occasion, influencing my later decision to major in philosophy and religion.

    Shortly afterwards, some of our weak and sickly prisoners were marched off by French soldiers to their camp. We were riding on a truck behind this column. Temporarily, it slowed down and dropped back, perhaps because the driver was as shocked as I was. Whenever a German prisoner staggered or dropped back, he was hit on the head with a club until he died. The bodies were rolled to the side of the road to be picked up by another truck. For many, this quick death might have been preferable to slow starvation in our "killing fields."

    When I finally saw the German women in a separate enclosure, I asked why we were holding them prisoner. I was told they were "camp followers," selected as breeding stock for the S.S. to create a super-race. I spoke to some and must say I never met a more spirited or attractive group of women. I certainly didn't think they deserved imprisonment.

    I was used increasingly as an interpreter, and was able to prevent some particularly unfortunate arrests. One rather amusing incident involved an old farmer who was being dragged away by several M.P's. I was told he had a "fancy Nazi medal," which they showed me. Fortunately, I had a chart identifying such medals. He'd been awarded it for having five children! Perhaps his wife was somewhat relieved to get him "off her back," but I didn't think one of our death camps was a fair punishment for his contribution to Germany. The M.P.s agreed and released him to continue his "dirty work."

    Famine began to spread among the German civilians also. It was a common sight to see German women up to their elbows in our garbage cans looking for something edible -- that is, if they weren't chased away.

    When I interviewed mayors of small towns and villages, I was told their supply of food had been taken away by "displaced persons" (foreigners who had worked in Germany), who packed the food on trucks and drove away. When I reported this, the response was a shrug. I never saw any Red Cross at the camp or helping civilians, although their coffee and doughnut stands were available everywhere else for us. In the meantime, the Germans had to rely on the sharing of hidden stores until the next harvest.

    Hunger made German women more "available," but despite this, rape was prevalent and often accompanied by additional violence. In particular I remember an eighteen-year old woman who had the side of her faced smashed with a rifle butt and was then raped by two G.I.s. Even the French complained that the rapes, looting and drunken destructiveness on the part of our troops was excessive. In Le Havre, we'd been given booklets warning us that the German soldiers had maintained a high standard of behavior with French civilians who were peaceful, and that we should do the same. In this we failed miserably.

    "So what?" some would say. "The enemy's atrocities were worse than ours." It is true that I experienced only the end of the war, when we were already the victors. The German opportunity for atrocities had faded; ours was at hand. But two wrongs don't make a right. Rather than copying our enemy's crimes, we should aim once and for all to break the cycle of hatred and vengeance that has plagued and distorted human history. This is why I am speaking out now, forty-five years after the crime. We can never prevent individual war crimes, but we can, if enough of us speak out, influence government policy. We can reject government propaganda that depicts our enemies as subhuman and encourages the kind of outrages I witnessed. We can protest the bombing of civilian targets, which still goes on today. And we can refuse ever to condone our government's murder of unarmed and defeated prisoners of war.

    I realize it is difficult for the average citizen to admit witnessing a crime of this magnitude, especially if implicated himself. Even G.I's sympathetic to the victims were afraid to complain and get into trouble, they told me. And the danger has not ceased. Since I spoke out a few weeks ago, I have received threatening calls and had my mailbox smashed. But its been worth it. Writing about these atrocities has been a catharsis of feeling suppressed too long, a liberation, and perhaps will remind other witnesses that "the truth will make us free, have no fear." We may even learn a supreme lesson from all this: only love can conquer all.

    http://www.rense.com/general88/eisen.htm

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    I suggest trying this for mainstream, Nemesis at Potsdam: the Anglo-Americans and the expulsion of the Germans by Alfred M. De Zayas.

    First published in 1979, and now in its 10th edition in German with several revised editions in English, Nemesis at Potsdam is the moving and horrifying account of the expulsion after WWII of 15 million German-speaking men, women, and children from their ancestral homelands in Eastern Central Europe. Over 2 million innocent civilians, mostly women and child, died during the expulsion - one of the worst tragedies of the 20th century.

    A great amnesia has overtaken the children and grandchildren of the Allied participants, especially in the West. But today the German nation of 80 million includes 15 million Expulsion survivors and their children and grandchildren. No understanding of modern Germany will ever be complete without greater knowledge of this ghastly period in Germany's and the Allies' past.

    This is an important book on a sensitive subject. it reminds genealogists that not all emigrations are voluntary; and not all immigrants to America came hundreds of years ago. A personal favorite; our strongest recommendation.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0897253604/ref=cm_rdp_product

    You can find a limited preview on Google books:
    Nemesis at Potsdam: the Anglo-Americans and the expulsion of the Germans

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    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    So much to talk about, so little time. However, I do have a gift to point out the obvious....The last time I looked Nazi Germany attacked Russia first, declared war on the US after pearl harbor. If you don't like what Germany is become, blame grandparents/parents and do something about it!
    One thing that will never be taken into consideration on this point is the active effort on the part of FDR to provoke a fight with Germany which failed, but his efforts to provoke Japan into attacking succeeded wildly. US ships were torpedoing German U-boats when the US was "neutral" and the US was actively aiding the UK in arms shipments, etc. If those aren't acts of war, I don't know what is. On the topic of US provocations of Germany, I'd suggest reading New Dealer's War by Thomas Fleming.

    On the Japanese front, information has long since been out showing that FDR's machinations were ultimately behind Pearl Harbor, and that it was no "surprise attack." For this topic I'd suggest reading Robert Stinnet's Days of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. I'd also suggest The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor: The Washington Contribution by Rear Admiral Robert A. Theobald USN Ret and this IHR article.

    Now as far as Germany's current condition being the fault of the German people themselves, I disagree. From the spring of 1945 on, Germany was faced with brainwashing programs against them by their occupiers. Part of this was to outlaw certain political groups and stock the government, the media, and the educational system and rewrite school textbooks. The other part was to intentionally instill collective guilt upon the German people. This has been pounded into the heads of Germans since 1945 and continues to be so by the anti-German elements which control the majority of the German government and social life, who were ultimately put there by the occupying powers. To quote Alfred de Zayas' Nemesis at Potsdam, page 71:

    "Another argument which is frequently heard is that Germans fled out of feelings of guilt, anticipating Red Army vengeance for the crimes committed by the Nazis in the Soviet Union. Of course, a number of Nazi functionaries knew about the crimes of the political SS and the Einsatzgruppen inside Russia and decided that it would be healthier for them to disappear before the arrival of the Red Army. The number of these Nazi functionaries, however, was limited. To generalize from these few and impute guilt upon millions of German civilians who fled for entirely different reasons would be tantamount of falsifying history. Quite the contrary, the occupying Powers were frequently perplexed by the almost total lack of a sense of guilt among the German people. In his report to President Truman dated 9 November, 1945, Byron Price complained that:
    Notwithstanding the punishments Germans now suffer and those still before them, there is no apparent realization of collective guilt for the unspeakable crimes committed by the German nation... Intelligence reports indicate clearly that all of our propaganda efforts to instill a sense of collective guilt have fallen flat."
    Quote Originally Posted by Godwinson View Post
    I've also been reading about this subject F.G. and below is one of many stories of Allied atrocities. To think that people such as these were sitting in righteous judgement of others at Nuremburg and professing to be the defenders of civilization ...
    Nuremberg was a political sham from the get-go. For one thing, by simple observation one can see that the only people who are tried in this "war crimes tribunals" are those who lose wars. That means the winners of wars are either morally spotless or they're using the tribunals as a political racket against their opponents. The IHR's Mark Weber (among others) wrote some revealing pieces about Nuremberg.

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