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Thread: War Crimes Against Germans (WWII)

  1. #11
    Senior Member prodeutsch's Avatar
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    History revisionism no matter what the motive, is mostly a poor attempt at justifying atrocities. Honorable warriors do not butcher, the lowest of the low do....

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    Schimmelreiter
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    Slaughtering prisoners is very honourable, actually, but I agree that revisionism is primarily meant to keep a maladjusted moral compass consistent with the world.

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    Senior Member Quo vadis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    History revisionism no matter what the motive, is mostly a poor attempt at justifying atrocities.
    Revisionist history does no such thing. It is the predominant history of today which is doing exactly that, attempting to justify atrocities like the bombing of civilians, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the name of humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    Slaughtering prisoners is very honourable, actually,...
    Human beings have an inborn capability of compassion and unless they have an overriding motivation, killing and cruelty does not come easy to them. When they are told that slaughtering prisoners is very honourable, they recoil in horror. So do I. People will always be persuaded by moral reasoning. We lament that our people have been conditioned today to carry out their own undoing for moral reasons, but unless they are presented an alternative moral reasoning, they will continue to do so. Naked immorality is not an attractive option except for the most brute and the most desperate people.

    ...but I agree that revisionism is primarily meant to keep a maladjusted moral compass consistent with the world.
    A moral compass which, over the course of centuries, made our people creative and powerful.

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    Schimmelreiter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    Human beings have an inborn capability of compassion and unless they have an overriding motivation, killing and cruelty does not come easy to them.
    There are a lot of mental barriers to it, which is why so much attention is paid to proper mentalities in any successful warrior culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    When they are told that slaughtering prisoners is very honourable, they recoil in horror.
    Yet, it has been seen that way by our ancestors since prehistory, archaeological evidence strongly suggest that as well as later historical tradition. The fact that you recoil in horror is learned behaviour emanating from a perverted contemporary culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    Naked immorality is not an attractive option except for the most brute and the most desperate people.
    It fits then, because we are both. Still, you should have noticed by now that what I am talking about is the opposite of immorality, it is a highly moral way of perceiving and judging the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    A moral compass which, over the course of centuries, made our people creative and powerful.
    Nonsense, we are on the brink of extinction. I heard you say as much, so why insist on continuing what brought us there?


    I am not commenting on any specific war crimes (as per thread title) from either side, just on the personal motivations people might have for denying them.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Quo vadis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    There are a lot of mental barriers to it, which is why so much attention is paid to proper mentalities in any successful warrior culture.
    Over the course of centuries, such "pure" warrior cultures were ultimately defeated and displaced by more universal and more refined cultures. In recent centuries, Germanic peoples had no pure warrior culture - at least none which considered slaughtering prisoners honourable - yet they had the most powerful armies of the world. These armies were trained in proper conduct during war, but this did not make them weaker.

    Yet, it has been seen that way by our ancestors since prehistory, archaeological evidence strongly suggest that as well as later historical tradition. The fact that you recoil in horror is learned behaviour emanating from a perverted contemporary culture.
    Why should the original culture of our ancestors be superior to the culture they adopted later on? Isn't the fact that they changed their ways evidence that they considered the culture they adopted superior to their original culture?

    It fits then, because we are both. Still, you should have noticed by now that what I am talking about is the opposite of immorality, it is a highly moral way of perceiving and judging the world.
    Germanics are not a brute people, to the contrary. Desperate we are indeed, but even in our despair, slaughtering prisoners does not help us one bit, it only torments our souls and our moral conscience, even if we suppress it for the moment, will come back and haunt our people at some later time.

    Nonsense, we are on the brink of extinction. I heard you say as much, so why insist on continuing what brought us there?
    I believe that what brought us here, was not our moral compass as it existed for the most part still intact in the 18th and 19th century, but the perversions it was subjected to later on and ultimately, its complete defamation due to Allied propaganda about Axis atrocities in world war 2. Now we must rebuild our moral compass from the ground on and I appreciate your input, but we must do it with reason. You praised slaughtering prisoners as very honourable, but you did not provide a reason why such mindless killing would be necessary or even beneficial to us. I assert that, to the contrary, it is harmful, because it torments our souls to the highest degree and unless we have a good reason to justify it with, it will be great liability to us and our progeny later on.

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    Schimmelreiter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    Over the course of centuries, such "pure" warrior cultures were ultimately defeated and displaced by more universal and more refined cultures.
    That is indeed sad, but also a pointless observation if it is not explained why the warrior could no longer continue to kick the universal merchant into the mud and whether it has to be that way under all circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    These armies were trained in proper conduct during war, but this did not make them weaker.
    You have been misinformed; they broke their supposed rules of conduct whenever it was necessary for their primary objectives. Either way, it does not change anything about my comment on the mental aspect of warfare, in whatever direction it might develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    Why should the original culture of our ancestors be superior to the culture they adopted later on?
    A nonsensical question. I replied to your notion of an inherent quality that would prevent such a culture from existing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    Isn't the fact that they changed their ways evidence that they considered the culture they adopted superior to their original culture?
    A historical transformation process would require that, just like our current transformation process requires it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    I believe that what brought us here, was not our moral compass as it existed for the most part still intact in the 18th and 19th century, but the perversions it was subjected to later on and ultimately, its complete defamation due to Allied propaganda about Axis atrocities in world war 2.
    It was a long history of ideas that brought us here and among them are very wrong ones that will ultimately kill those who cling to them, whereas good ideas will allow those who uphold them to thrive within their potential. Ideas cannot be thought of as truly separate from the people that keep them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    You praised slaughtering prisoners as very honourable, but you did not provide a reason why such mindless killing would be necessary or even beneficial to us.
    It was sufficient for the purpose of correcting the false claim that "honorable warriors do not butcher".

    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    I assert that, to the contrary, it is harmful, because it torments our souls to the highest degree and unless we have a good reason to justify it with, it will be great liability to us and our progeny later on.
    I assert that our people feel torment in their souls for existing, but there is no sense in pretending that this has the character of a universal law.

  7. #17
    Senior Member prodeutsch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quo vadis View Post
    Revisionist history does no such thing. It is the predominant history of today which is doing exactly that, attempting to justify atrocities like the bombing of civilians, ethnic cleansing and genocide in the name of humanity.



    Human beings have an inborn capability of compassion and unless they have an overriding motivation, killing and cruelty does not come easy to them. When they are told that slaughtering prisoners is very honourable, they recoil in horror. So do I. People will always be persuaded by moral reasoning. We lament that our people have been conditioned today to carry out their own undoing for moral reasons, but unless they are presented an alternative moral reasoning, they will continue to do so. Naked immorality is not an attractive option except for the most brute and the most desperate people.



    A moral compass which, over the course of centuries, made our people creative and powerful.
    I think u missed my point, when histroical revisionism occurs it justifies in some peoples minds that the slaughtering of non-combatants is permissible. When clearly it is not.

    We can talk about German East Africa, we can talk about the campaign against plains indians, bombing of Rotterdam, bombing of Dresden, etc, ultimately the way one wages war helps to define a people....IMHO. When one is so brutal that they kill everyone, then they run the risk of having it done to them.

  8. #18
    Schimmelreiter
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    When clearly it is not.
    Why is this clear?

    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    When one is so brutal that they kill everyone, then they run the risk of having it done to them.
    That is only partially true for strategic rule-breaking behaviour where the initial violation gives an advantage and forces the other side to abandon the rule as well.

    On the other hand, people get away with wanton destruction all the time and your people are the best example for that.

  9. #19
    Senior Member prodeutsch's Avatar
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    My people? Please, you really have no Idea what you are talking about. I am an immigrant to America, and as I have said in the past I do not believe in collective guilt, that concept is for the intellectually weak!

    Targeting non-combatants is a relatively new concept, nothing justifies it, as a modern day warrior ( I am in the military) my job is to break the enemies military will to resist not to kill non-combatants. Those types of jobs are for einzatsgruppe and other rabble. That is not to say innocents do not get killed all the time in conflicts, because clearly they do.

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    Schimmelreiter
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    Targeting non-combatants is a relatively new concept
    Very old, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    nothing justifies it
    People seem to disagree, because it happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    My people? Please, you really have no Idea what you are talking about. I am an immigrant to America
    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    as a modern day warrior ( I am in the military) my job is to break the enemies military will to resist
    The will to resist America, I presume.

    Quote Originally Posted by prodeutsch View Post
    Those types of jobs are for einzatsgruppe and other rabble.
    Like the ones the US has pushed into power in my country, reliably doing their work to maintain Western civilisation in Germany.

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