Average Colour of Hair in Germany ?

[Germaniathane]

I completely disagree with you. Statistics based on mere observation cannot be credible or accurate. I am also very familiar with the stats, you gave for Germany. Translations from German should not be taken literally, due to the fact that the "dunkelblond" or dark blond category depending on translations can mean light brown and the "mittelblond" can mean just blond and so on. In the Polish and Russian anthropologies sources as well, light brown hair is categorized as "dark blond" hair or put in the same category. So you cannot use this to compare it with Coon old, complicated statistics on England or Britain or some other country. I am criticizing Coon, for example when he puts Cornwall at "10-15% blond" is totally ridiculous or just needs more specifications. At the same time, he equates eastern parts of England to Denmark in terms of blondness. No county or region of England is as low as 10% blond. In fact, there isn't such a big difference between counties all over England in terms of blondness, differences in England are never as great as in France (north vs south) or Germany (north vs south) or Italy (north vs south). Furthermore the 10-15% blond category is more appropriate for Southern European countries, such as Serbia (15%), Bulgaria (12%), Portugal (11%), Spain (9.5%), Greece (10.7%), Italy (8.2%). Coon went even as low as 5%, what a joke! Not even regions of Northern Italy are as low as 5% blond! Sicily in Southern Italy is 5% blond. Sicily is definitely not Cornwall or England. Although Coon himself recognizes that England is still blonder and lighter-haired than the lightest regions of northern France.
Now, if I examine the overall statistics, you have given for Germany, I'd say again that Germany as a whole is not lighter-haired than England.
For example, your figure for light hair in Northern Germany is 65% which is quite similar to that of Ireland (64%), not much of a difference. Ireland is already lighter-haired than Central or Southern Germany, at 36% for dark hair comparable to Northern Germany's 35%.Though most of the light hair in Ireland is within the light brown or reddish tone. Knowing that England (72% light hair) as a whole is lighter-haired than Ireland, this makes England lighter-haired than Germany as well as lighter-eyed. The most common eye colour in England is blue, this cannot be said for the entire of Germany, except for the very north especially regions along or near the Baltic and North seas. Pure black hair is rare and of no importance in both England/Ireland, most of the dark hair is within the dark brown or deep brown tones. Contrary to Coon's outdated theory, Cornwall is not the least blond county in England, the statistics are that the Cornish in hair colour are 3%(red), 30% (blond) not 10%, 67%(brown). West Sussex, I believe is the least blond-haired county in England at 22%.
Barbara Freire Marreco, an English-born female anthropologist of Portuguese descent did a proper survey better than Coon's generalized one on hair colour of English children in the county of Surrey and the results showed 47.9% (blonde), 36.9%(light/medium brown), 12.85%(darker), 2.4%(red). Obviously for adults, it would be darker, the statistics for Surrey are 36%(blond).

[Juthunge]

Statistics based on mere observation cannot be credible or accurate.

You’re saying this but then you’re going on to criticise Coon, a major physical anthropologist by trade who actually states his sources, which worked with scientific methods, and you again produce some bogus numbers without doing as much as naming a source.
Besides, that percentages like “9,5”, “10,7” and “8,2” are obviously made up for something as fickle as assessing the hair colour of millions of people.

I am also very familiar with the stats, you gave for Germany. Translations from German should not be taken literally, due to the fact that the "dunkelblond" or dark blond category depending on translations can mean light brown and the "mittelblond" can mean just blond and so on.

It’s true that perception of colour might vary between peoples. But it’s not like Germans are southern Europeans and we couldn’t distinguish between blonde and brown in general.
Opinions might vary, even within people from the same region, if it comes to whether hair is still dark blond or already light brown for example. But since both are usually included as light hair in studies that’s actually negligible.

So you cannot use this to compare it with Coon old, complicated statistics on England or Britain or some other country. I am criticizing Coon, for example when he puts Cornwall at "10-15% blond" is totally ridiculous or just needs more specifications. At the same time, he equates eastern parts of England to Denmark in terms of blondness. No county or region of England is as low as 10% blond. In fact, there isn't such a big difference between counties all over England in terms of blondness, differences in England are never as great as in France (north vs south) or Germany (north vs south) or Italy (north vs south).

Sorry but you’re not even English/living in England yourself but an American and unless you have actual studies other than Coon these are just unsubstantiated subjective claims from thousands of kilometers away.

Regional differences within countries nowadays might well have largely evened out in England as everywhere in Europe, due to heightened mobility in the last decades, however. But the average for the country won't have changed much if only native inhabitants are included.

Now, if I examine the overall statistics, you have given for Germany, I'd say again that Germany as a whole is not lighter-haired than England.

Well, I didn’t claim that, neither is it important to me, this is not some kind of Nordish contest. Both are, on average, probably roughly around the same amount of light hair anyway, though the English might well be lighter eyed(although that certainly must include eyes other than blue).
I care about scientific objectivity, however and so far I have produced some sources at least, whereas you keep on posting numbers without references.

For example, your figure for light hair in Northern Germany is 65% which is quite similar to that of Ireland (64%), not much of a difference.

It only doesn’t make a difference if we accept your numbers for Ireland, which I certainly don’t as it’s contrary to anything I’ve ever read by actual anthropologists and seen with my own eyes.

Here Coon draws on an anthropological study of10.000 Irish by Hooton and Dupertuis from Harvard(see footnote 13) and they used standardised Fischer scales:
“The hair color of the Irish is predominantly brown; black hair accounts for less than 3 per cent of the total, while the ashen series (Fischer #20-26) amounts to but one-half of one per cent. Forty per cent have dark brown hair (Fischer #4-5); 35 per cent have medium brown (Fischer #7-9); reddish brown hues total over 5 per cent (closest to Fischer #6, #10), while clear reds (Fischer #1-3) run higher than 4 per cent. The rest, some 15 per cent, fall into a light brown to golden blond category (Fischer #11-19).”

That makes about 25% of light hair, if we include blonde, red, reddish brown and light brown. Almost exactly three times less than you claim.

Contrary to Coon's outdated theory, Cornwall is not the least blond county in England, the statistics are that the Cornish in hair colour are 3%(red), 30% (blond) not 10%, 67%(brown). West Sussex, I believe is the least blond-haired county in England at 22%.

Again, which “statistics”? If you have the numbers at hand it can’t be that hard to give a name if it’s a halfway credible source.

[Germaniathane]

You’re saying this but then you’re going on to criticise Coon, a major physical anthropologist by trade who actually states his sources, which worked with scientific methods, and you again produce some bogus numbers without doing as much as naming a source.
Besides, that percentages like “9,5�, “10,7� and “8,2� are obviously made up for something as fickle as assessing the hair colour of millions of people.


It’s true that perception of colour might vary between peoples. But it’s not like Germans are southern Europeans and we couldn’t distinguish between blonde and brown in general.
Opinions might vary, even within people from the same region, if it comes to whether hair is still dark blond or already light brown for example. But since both are usually included as light hair in studies that’s actually negligible.


Sorry but you’re not even English/living in England yourself but an American and unless you have actual studies other than Coon these are just unsubstantiated subjective claims from thousands of kilometers away.

Regional differences within countries nowadays might well have largely evened out in England as everywhere in Europe, due to heightened mobility in the last decades, however. But the average for the country won't have changed much if only native inhabitants are included.


Well, I didn’t claim that, neither is it important to me, this is not some kind of Nordish contest. Both are, on average, probably roughly around the same amount of light hair anyway, though the English might well be lighter eyed(although that certainly must include eyes other than blue).
I care about scientific objectivity, however and so far I have produced some sources at least, whereas you keep on posting numbers without references.


It only doesn’t make a difference if we accept your numbers for Ireland, which I certainly don’t as it’s contrary to anything I’ve ever read by actual anthropologists and seen with my own eyes.

Here Coon draws on an anthropological study of10.000 Irish by Hooton and Dupertuis from Harvard(see footnote 13) and they used standardised Fischer scales:
“The hair color of the Irish is predominantly brown; black hair accounts for less than 3 per cent of the total, while the ashen series (Fischer #20-26) amounts to but one-half of one per cent. Forty per cent have dark brown hair (Fischer #4-5); 35 per cent have medium brown (Fischer #7-9); reddish brown hues total over 5 per cent (closest to Fischer #6, #10), while clear reds (Fischer #1-3) run higher than 4 per cent. The rest, some 15 per cent, fall into a light brown to golden blond category (Fischer #11-19).�

That makes about 25% of light hair, if we include blonde, red, reddish brown and light brown. Almost exactly three times less than you claim.


Again, which “statistics�? If you have the numbers at hand it can’t be that hard to give a name if it’s a halfway credible source.

What you said was totally irrelevant! I am sorry to say so. Coon was an American too, did that mean that he couldn't know anything about the British Isles? Think that through and answer me. Light hair is not only equal to blond and red hair either, but also the various light tinges of brown. If Cornwall is supposedly "10%" blond, what would Italy or Portugal be, "1%?", France maybe "5%?". That alone sounds completely ridiculous.
I clearly said that proper pigmentation surveys done on the Italian population put Italy for example at 8.2% blond-haired overall, though variations between regions exist.
Northern Italy region (blond hair frequencies)

Trentino Alto-Aldige = 15%+
Friuli-Venezia Guilia = 12.6%
Veneto = 12.6%
Valle D'Aosta = 12.4%
Piemonte = 12.4%
Liguria = 10.3%
Lombardia = 10.1%
Emilia Romagna = 7.2%

Central Italy
Toscana = 9.2%
Umbria = 9%
Le Marche = 7.2%
Lazio = 6.4%

Southern Italy
Campania = 6.8%
Abruzzo = 6.6%
Molise = 6.6%
Puglia = 5.7%
Sicily = 5%
Basilicata = 4.8%
Calabria = 3.8%
Sardinia = 1.7%

By looking at the frequencies throughout Italy. It is for sure that Cornwall is nowhere as dark as Italy and is much more closer to regions in Northern Europe. Italy itself is already darker-haired than France! 15%-20% blond hair is more appropriate Southern and Central France, but Northern France is lighter-haired (20%+ blond hair). England is over the 20% mark for blond hair. for So I cannot use Coon's outdated information for a proper representation of the English people as a whole. My sources based on a survey done relatively recently, put Cornwall at 30% blond. Cornwall is blonder-haired than Ireland, but nowhere close in terms of red hair.
Studies done relatively on Irish people show that the following frequencies in hair colour for their populations: 36%(dark brown), 31%(light brown), 23%(blonde), 10%(red), over 80% light eyes, 76% skin type I/II. This puts the Irish at 64% light-haired comparable to the Northern German population in light hair colour, but lighter-eyed and fairer-skinned. My own sources about hair colour in England already breaks Coon generalized frequency for blond hair in that country.
South West England region
Bristol - 37%
Dorset - 37%
Devon - 37%
Gloucester - 36%
Cornwall - 30%
Somerset - 28%
Wiltshire - 28%
Even in this region, Cornwall isn't the darkest. Though the most common hair colour in England is light brown as it is also in Germany.

[Germaniathane]

I've just come from another forum were someone tried to convince me that the British aren't Germanic ? He showed several photos of crowd scenes, taken in Britain, were the majority of people had brown hair, rather than blond hair? I was of the understanding that most German people also had brown hair ? His arguement being, if we were Germanic, we would mostly have blond hair.
Am I right or wrong....

Well Germanic people may have blond, red, brown or even black hair. Now due to the fact that most Germanic countries are geographically located in more northern part, there is a higher frequency of blond hair, however only in Scandinavia do the blondes dominate. I could also show pictures where many British or Irish people are blonde-haired, so that is irrelevant. Baltic countries have a higher frequency of blond hair than many other Germanic countries. Blond hair doesn't equal to Germanic, rather Northern European. Blond hair was already present in Northern Europe, before Germanic and other Indo-Europeans invaded Europe. O.K.! The majority of Germans have brown not blond hair. Although Germany is very diverse country, in the very north, blondness approaches Scandinavian level in Schleswig-Holstein, parts of Bremen, Lower Saxony, northern Mecklenburg Pomerania (over 40%), but in the very south it goes much lower. In Britain, Germanic strains are more dominant in England and Lowland Scotland.

[Germaniathane]

You’re saying this but then you’re going on to criticise Coon, a major physical anthropologist by trade who actually states his sources, which worked with scientific methods, and you again produce some bogus numbers without doing as much as naming a source.
Besides, that percentages like “9,5”, “10,7” and “8,2” are obviously made up for something as fickle as assessing the hair colour of millions of people.



It’s true that perception of colour might vary between peoples. But it’s not like Germans are southern Europeans and we couldn’t distinguish between blonde and brown in general.
Opinions might vary, even within people from the same region, if it comes to whether hair is still dark blond or already light brown for example. But since both are usually included as light hair in studies that’s actually negligible.


Sorry but you’re not even English/living in England yourself but an American and unless you have actual studies other than Coon these are just unsubstantiated subjective claims from thousands of kilometers away.

Regional differences within countries nowadays might well have largely evened out in England as everywhere in Europe, due to heightened mobility in the last decades, however. But the average for the country won't have changed much if only native inhabitants are included.


Well, I didn’t claim that, neither is it important to me, this is not some kind of Nordish contest. Both are, on average, probably roughly around the same amount of light hair anyway, though the English might well be lighter eyed(although that certainly must include eyes other than blue).
I care about scientific objectivity, however and so far I have produced some sources at least, whereas you keep on posting numbers without references.


It only doesn’t make a difference if we accept your numbers for Ireland, which I certainly don’t as it’s contrary to anything I’ve ever read by actual anthropologists and seen with my own eyes.

Here Coon draws on an anthropological study of10.000 Irish by Hooton and Dupertuis from Harvard(see footnote 13) and they used standardised Fischer scales:
“The hair color of the Irish is predominantly brown; black hair accounts for less than 3 per cent of the total, while the ashen series (Fischer #20-26) amounts to but one-half of one per cent. Forty per cent have dark brown hair (Fischer #4-5); 35 per cent have medium brown (Fischer #7-9); reddish brown hues total over 5 per cent (closest to Fischer #6, #10), while clear reds (Fischer #1-3) run higher than 4 per cent. The rest, some 15 per cent, fall into a light brown to golden blond category (Fischer #11-19).”

That makes about 25% of light hair, if we include blonde, red, reddish brown and light brown. Almost exactly three times less than you claim.


Again, which “statistics”? If you have the numbers at hand it can’t be that hard to give a name if it’s a halfway credible source.

Firstly get your facts straight! Light hair encompasses the following shades; red+blond+light/medium brown shades while dark hair includes black + dark brown shades. Even if I go with the Harvard study results for the Irish, I get a figure way over 25% rather 57.3% and 42.7% for dark hair. Though there are much more recent studies published by the Irish Journal of Medical Science on Irish pigmentation showing that 36% for dark hair and 64% for light hair. Thus the Irish are very much so comparable to Northern Germans in hair colour though they tend to go in a more ruddy direction. They are also overall lighter-skinned and lighter-eyed. The blondest European groups are not Germans by the way, rather the people living in the inlands of the Agder region in Southeastern Norway and Central Estonians, these two groups score over 80% for light blond/blondish hair.

[Germaniathane]

I've just come from another forum were someone tried to convince me that the British aren't Germanic ? He showed several photos of crowd scenes, taken in Britain, were the majority of people had brown hair, rather than blond hair? I was of the understanding that most German people also had brown hair ? His arguement being, if we were Germanic, we would mostly have blond hair.
Am I right or wrong....

You are right.