View Poll Results: Which city would you prefer as capital for a German union?

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  • Berlin.

    57 41.30%
  • Vienna.

    36 26.09%
  • Another city. (specify it please)

    36 26.09%
  • I've no preference.

    9 6.52%
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Thread: Berlin or Vienna, Which Capital Would You Prefer for a German Union?

  1. #31
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    One can't have a union where every single German will identify with the capital and where the capital will encompass all aspects of German culture, of every region. Unity involves by definition a certain degree of centralization. Just like we have the High (or Standard) German language today, which originated not as a traditional dialect of a specific region or as a mixture from all dialects, but as a written language and communication tool, developed over a process of several hundred years, in which people tried to write in a way that was understood in the largest area.

    From a political and symbolical point of view I'd say Vienna. Of course there are also cultural, social and economic reasons. Until the beginning of the 20th century, Vienna was the largest German-speaking city in the world and today's High German sounds similar to the German spoken in the Viennese Kaiser's Court. It has high cultural value -- regarded as the City of Music -- it is rich in architectural ensembles, including Baroque castles and gardens, and the late-19th-century Ringstraße lined with grand buildings, monuments and parks. It is also regarded as one of the highest quality cities in terms of living conditions, as a relatively recent study revealed. Vienna was actually ranked as the most livable amidst over 120 world cities, also ranked first globally for its culture of innovation. Vienna played a major role in European and world politics as the capital of the Austrian Empire, and remains today a world leading destination for national and international congresses and conventions.

    Vienna would make a more powerfully symbolic choice if one is to consider pan-Germanism. Vienna can be seen as a symbol of greater German unity -- it is where the Anschluss or Heimkehr to Germany took place.

  2. #32
    Senior Member thoughtcrime's Avatar
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    In the long term, I'd prefer a northwest european confederation (or empire) with scandinavia, england, scotland, ireland, germany, austria and BeNeLux with Hamburg as a capitol.

    Berlin lies in the far north
    Come on, velvet, anyone knows Berlin is damn far south

    To stay on topic, I'd prefer Berlin over Vienna.
    "Lever dot as slav."

  3. #33
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    Even in a Germany united with Austria and Switzerland, Munich would be too southern. Vienna even more:



    Nuremberg would cling more towards the centre.

    Dresden or Frankfurt appear more central.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    As if the Germans of 1989 had a choice. You should be happy a unification happened and we are not FRG and GDR still today.
    You're misunderstanding what I purported to say. Of course I'm happy that a first step towards the goal of a unified Germany was made.

    However, the crux was: It was stated that Berlin was the "historical capital of a unified Germany", when its time as a capital put together is less than 100 years and with the exception of the Third Reich did not contain even nearly the entirety of the German people (neither did the Third Reich, but of situations in which Berlin was the capital, it was closest to it).

    So I asked him which "unified Germany" he meant: The current one, or the "unification-lite" version of 1871. That a fully unified Germany was not the case with the HRE either is clear, as important parts of Prussia were outwith (and yes, believe it or not, initial partial Prussian exclusion from being officially within the Empire does bother me).

    Oh, and do German nationalists force Austria to adopt its inane anti-NS laws and petty regionalist 'patriotic' stance, for fear of losing their culture to 'Prussianization'?
    No, we all know the roots for all these problems. What I referred to in being told that we're not Germans is likewise Allied propaganda. Between the Wars, people had no problem to see themselves as Germans, and even during the Austrian Empire, we understood ourselves as Austrians, but also Germans.

    It is this which is getting worse though, I hear "Austria this, Austria that", and people getting uptight about being called Germans. But being forced to adopt a Prussian way of life would not help to bridge that rift, understanding Germany as a continuum of regions is what would bridge that rift.

    Once the Austrian can understand that Germany is not all Prussia, then he will have lesser problems seeing himself as a German, much like a Franconian or Westphalian or yes, of course, Bavarian, would. With the attempt at eradicating regional identification entirely, this problem is not solved, instead it is perhaps made final, which cannot be the goal.

    Even you're already getting a little uptight again, if we're doing as much as proposing the capital to be in Bajuvarian areas, in a thread where this option was open. You're scared that this might lead to people to further divide and have secessionist thoughts, because they might not be able to identify with it --- but now, look into the mirror and ask yourself whether you can perhaps now understand why we're no more fond of "Prussification" than you'd be of "Bavarification". Perhaps this little heated debating can help us understand each other's points better, dunno?

    Because with Prussification, the full separation of Austria and Germany is a self-runner, and we don't want that. And of course, we wouldn't want Bavarification (as much as it is a luring concept ), nor Franconification nor Saxonification. We are all Germans, regardless of our regional identification. And because we still are all Germans, we shouldn't push our regional attachment onto others (and yes, this includes handling Germany as though it were a Greater Prussia), can we agree on that?

    Austrian nationalists, even the best parties of Austria
    I hope you notice that even with my "more regional" viewpoint, and my strong regional identification, I consider the term "Austrian nationalist" as much of an oxymoron as you do. There is a reason why I combine the Tyrolese flag with the German flag, this is to be understood as a statement: Tyrolese by region, Bavarian by tribe and German by nation, they don't exclude each other.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  5. #35
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    From my point of view, concentrating everything in a single city, predominant centralization, is not a good idea. Not only because of regionalism. Forget that for a moment. A capital that works as the headquarters of a nation, a political and administrative center, with a well defined infrastructure, with fast links to other major cities in the country and outside it. International airports, highways, big hotels to house state and regional representatives, international guests, tourists. Tiny cities with populations of 100.000s are a bad idea from these respects. However, it's these things that make a capital a strategic target in case of war. It should be avoided that occupying the capital results in the fall of the head of the state and regime. So more cities, a major one in each region, should be equipped with the necessary means to substitute a capital in case of need.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by totenlicht
    In the long term, I'd prefer a northwest european confederation (or empire) with scandinavia, england, scotland, ireland, germany, austria and BeNeLux with Hamburg as a capitol.


    Quote Originally Posted by totenlicht
    Come on, velvet, anyone knows Berlin is damn far south
    Not from my point of view
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolgadeutscher View Post
    Even in a Germany united with Austria and Switzerland, Munich would be too southern. Vienna even more:



    Nuremberg would cling more towards the centre.
    The map is obviously wrong, Nuremberg is by far not that northern as depicted.


    That´s the proper location of Nuremberg (Nürnberg).

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #38
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    Yeah, let's make Munich a capital of Germany.









    This is a fact, from the cosmopolitan and commercial "culture" from "traditional and rightwing" Bavaria. It's a fact that all Germany's big cities have been infested with decadence, and your regions aren't an exception. First this has to be removed, then we can worry about building unions and empires.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    Yeah, let's make Munich a capital of Germany.
    Yea, let's make Berlin the capital of Germany!









    Equating Munich with the Oktoberfest is like equating Berlin with the Love Parade. With the exception that the Oktoberfest actually once was fairly traditional before it turned basically commercial and tourist-orientated whilst Love Parade is basically a modern phenomenon directly from that degenerate over-sexualised consumer-culture.

    Munich has much more to offer than drunk people in autumn, it has many lovely buildings, landmarks and cultural venues which have absolutely nothing to do with the degenerate display the Oktoberfest has long become. As I said - essentially Oktoberfest is no more prominent to the local from Munich than Love Parade is to Berliners. Strangely enough, people from Munich go to Gäubodenfest in Straubing or even Rosenheimer Herbstfest instead, because the Oktoberfest isn't traditional enough for them anymore!

    But what was I going to expect from a Prussian, for whom all that the Bavaria represents is basically a backland province who does nothing but drink, eat and quarrel all day. Thanks for re-inforcing the silliest stereotype people have about Bavaria, it's worrying that fellow Nationalist Germans actually believe that type of thing.

    It's a fact that all Germany's big cities have been infested with decadence, and your regions aren't an exception. First this has to be removed, then we can worry about building unions and empires.
    Yes, that is a sad fact - but Berlin, Vienna, Cologne, Hamburg or any of the larger cities are no different than Munich in this respect.

    Some 70-80 years ago, Oktoberfest would have just been an ordinary festival, without all that type of thing ... and whilst it would have been quite popular and an important thing around the calendar, it wouldn't have been seen by Bavarians and non-Bavarians alike as any different than an average Kirmes, and most certainly would not have been seen as representative of Munich, at least not disproportionately so.

    But beyond that - the "cultural traditions" were never an argument of this, as we all know that much about most metropoles has to be changed before we can be proud of them again. Re-read again my argument --- it contained all arguments except that "I want it because it's Bavarian" and except "I want it because it's traditional". Yet these two non-existent agruments were constructed by the "Prussian brigade" as strawmen to argue against!

    Again, please offer a reason why Berlin would be more applicable as a capital than Munich would be. The "I can't identify with a Bavarian city" one doesn't count, because it's not going to be easier for a Bavarian to identify with Berlin than for a Prussian to identify with Munich. Fact.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  10. #40
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    Well Bärin, at least we can be proud to have Berlin, the shining star of Germany. Here´re some photos of its mayor, Klaus Wowereit, the gay one, governing the town together with the socialists and communists from the Linkspartei (former SED) and the leftift eco-freaks from the greens. Berlin, home of the largest Christopher Street Day in Germany, home of the largest homosexual scene in Germany, home of the degenerated Love Parade, home of most of the 68ies generation and their ideological helpers, home of the largest Antifa groups in Germany and home of many foreigners, making the city to the fourth-largest Turkish town in the world.

    Furthermore, Berlin is nearly bankrupt and has the highest per-capita indebtedness of whole Germany. Around 18% of the population of Berlin has to live on social welfare while only around 4% of the population of Bavaria has to take social welfare. But what´s the saying of Klaus Wowereit? "Berlin is poor but sexy!"



    Wowereit and his...husband:



    A typical school class in Berlin-Neukölln:




    Let me say it straight: I dislike the commerical image of the Oktoberfest nowadays, but I prefer it 10000 times over the image of Berlin. Berlin bundles everything what I hate in Germany nowadays. It´s not your fault or the fault of Todesengel or Ossi, and I know some parts of eastern Berlin are better, but if you generalisize Munich I´ll pay it back the same way.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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