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Thread: From the Evangelical Right in America

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    From the Evangelical Right in America

    [Split from How Did You Become an Atheist and Why - Mod]

    Velvet, let me attempt to graciously answer the questions you raise here and from a perspective we refer to in America as, “The Evangelical Right-Wing.” I don’t offer this as a mechanism to convince, but rather simply provide you perspective on how the Evangelical Right in America understands these same questions you’ve pointed out.


    People kept telling that God is good and wants all the best for his people and that he loves everyone and so on.
    This would be correct, however, what is absent here is man’s free-will vs God’s perfect-will, and in that lies a canyon of differences. Free-will allows one to steal from his neighbor, that is far from God’s perfect-will. Man made that decision to steal, not God.


    Reality though is quite different from that paradise vision, and there simply was nothing divine about the people's existence, but only suffering and death.
    Hmmm, not sure what you mean by “paradise,” but His perfect creation was compromised by man’s rebellion, and that rebellion incepted death into this world effecting the entire creation – sin’s perfect punishment.


    I thought, if God exists and he wants all good for his people, then he wouldnt allow wars and all the suffering.
    Ditto here to previous reference of free-will vs perfect-will. Man chooses to start wars, and even if man starts wars in the name of God, it’s still man starting the war and invoking God’s name doesn’t add one-level of truth to the invocation.


    And then the next problem, there is no way to communicate with (the christian) god. You simply are forced to believe in something completely unprooven. Some naive questions in that direction when I was seven or eight or something was the seed of doubt, that ended in the conviction about his non-existence shortly after. The answers just didnt make any sense and were quickly unveiled as lie and fantasy.
    I’m assuming your reference here to “communicate’ is in a formal-type,” touch and feel,” conversation? Outside of prayer, Evangelical’s refer to this as, “saved by grace through faith” and of course, “faith” being the key component of belief. And for many, that’s not enough I do understand.


    So the existence as atheist was just normal for me. I decided that I neither need the commandments of an imagined god nor the believe in his existence to be a happy human being.
    Yes, the “commandments issue” confuses many. If I had to try and live by the commandments, screw-it, I would have ditched the entire thing long-ago. Thank God for freedom.

    The commandments represent the law given to Moses. Evangelical’s recognize Christ’s death on the cross as the fulfillment of the law, and thus, we are no longer under the law but under grace. Jews reject Christ, and thus practice they are still under the law (though very few practice at all).


    That though didnt leave a complete spiritual void. I'm pretty sure that there is some more between the sky and the earth, but I'm likewise sure that this has nothing to do with the picture the christian belief paints. The spiritual experiences that I made were of a quite different nature, even when I cant describe them exactly. I didnt provoke them, they just happened to me, so I wasnt prepared. But they only came half from the outside, a better desciption would maybe be that something for a moment manifested outside of me which had its origin within me. Well, as said, cant describe that.
    I grew up in a very conservative German family in America. My father’s line goes back to Krickow, Mecklenburg and my mother’s line was part of the Black Sea German’s Hitler freed in 1941 (100% German blood here). Her line goes back to Wuerttenburg prior to the Black Sea Colonies.

    Seemed like we went to church every time the doors were open. Then, after college, I became a Theistic-Evolutionist. I once told my mom that if we sat in a pool of water over multiple generations, we could grow webbing between out toes and fingers. Yup, learned that at Arizona State University and paid lots of money for it too.

    Some years after college I struggled with complicated designs in nature and spent considerable time studying the entirety of this issue from all sides. I wasn’t convinced organisms experienced any expressions of new genetic information ever (laws of conservation of mass and thermodynamics as well as others). And the more answers I found, the more questions they generated. Finally got to a point where there remained more unsolvable questions from this pseudo-agnostic perspective I was trusting in that it convinced me, blind, random chance didn’t put me here. But that was just my conclusion. I have a cousin in SW Germany who is a Bio-Chemist, he too acknowledges these challeneges but he’s under the belief “we just don’t have those answers yet.” Perfectly fine with me.

    Despite the claims from both the Evangelical Right and the Naturalistic, Atheistic left, there remains many questions that may in time only partially be answered. And in the end, if accountability isn’t required, neither side loses anything.


    The term atheist for me refers mainly to the christian god, which I reject including all its commandments and concepts.
    Very few sects of Christianity practice we are under the law (commandments). Primarily that is practiced in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, but there are a small, handful of others too.


    Along with my own maturing and becoming a social being my argumentation against christianity is mainly a socio-psychological one. I'm pretty sure that the religious manifestation of it causes serious psychological defects in humans, due to its nature-denying concept.
    Wow, ouch, a dagger through the heart. The left in America hates us, as do the Muslims, but I was hoping noone else did. You may be right though about being “defective,” my wife would even agree because I watch NCAA College Football for 12 hours straight on Saturday’s. Ohhh you Europeans, you have no idea what real football is like. No floppin' here.


    Probably I'm on the borderline between atheist and realising the divine, and probable ways to it in heathenism. At least I would have less problems with accepting a pantheon than an envy little desert demon. Not least because the pantheon seems to be more in line with the partly quite different experiences I've made. And this pantheon seems to be in favour of the strength and powers within humans and does not try to suppress them. But the same way I have mainly followed my feelings (it just felt all wrong was first and then followed the logical investigation) when becoming an atheist, the same way I must follow my feelings when becoming a full heathen. I dont think that this is fully a conscious decision alone.
    The real crime in Christianity, from an Evangelical perspective, are those within the church that promote themselves as self-righteous – and many, many do, only to later fall causing “guilt by association” for the rest of us.

    So I’m okay with being a little crazy-to-the-right, just don’t stand in front of my television on Saturday afternoons during the games and we’ll never have a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSGWest
    I don’t offer this as a mechanism to convince, but rather simply provide you perspective
    Hmm, let's see if your claim is true

    Quote Originally Posted by DSGWest
    Despite the claims from both the Evangelical Right and the Naturalistic, Atheistic left
    Cheap manipulation trick to make me feel bad about my atheism

    You call yourself an evangelical Right (and leave out the wing, implying that you would hold the 'right' position), while you try to put me, in general all atheists and naturalists, most likely with them without differenciation also the Heathens, into the 'left', and since you place yourself on the correct side of your provided perspective, at the same time implying that we all are wrong.

    That's cheap rhethoric trickery

    Quote Originally Posted by DSGWest
    Faith being the key component of belief. And for many, that’s not enough I do understand
    No, it is not enough. It is a complete unsubstantiated superstition, told by humans, who demand trust in their words without proof (more important, without any reason) and then creating a manipulating belief system that turned our world upside down. This is my perspective, and your cheap rhethoric trickery will not change that.

    And even in case this desert demon would exists, the perspective would still be that it is a desert demon and therefor doesnt belong here. It is hostile to our people and enemies must be fought, not loved and adored.

    Quote Originally Posted by DSGWest
    The real crime in Christianity, from an Evangelical perspective, are those within the church that promote themselves as self-righteous – and many, many do, only to later fall causing “guilt by association” for the rest of us.
    Of course you would never do that yourself, despite your post being exactly that. Probably you really believe that, probably you dont notice your self-deception, because your faith and your perspective is as such a self-deception and therefor you are so used to the ways of deception that you believe you would be different from that. But you are not. You claim yourself being self-righteous and put guilt (for holding the wrong perspective) on the rest of people.

    I'd like to ask you to not try that once more with me, thanks.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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