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Thread: Out of Africa, Back to Africa, Out Again?

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    Out of Africa, Back to Africa, Out Again?

    An article published today in the Daily Mail proclaims "Ancient skeletons discovered in Georgia threaten to overturn the theory of human evolution":
    The first Dmanisi fossils were found in 2001. The most recent has only just been unearthed and its details have yet to be published in a scientific journal.

    Prof Lordkipanidze said the Dmanisi bones may have belonged to an early Homo erectus which lived in Georgia before moving on to the rest of Europe.

    Or the early humans may then have returned to Africa, eventually giving rise to our own species, Homoe sapiens, he said.

    'The question is whether Homo erectus orginated in Africa or Eurasia, and if in Eurasia, did we have vice-versa migrations? This idea looked very stupid a few years ago, but not today,' he told the British Science Festival.
    This scenario is not contradicted by modern human Y or mtDNA phylogenetics, which say nothing about where the ancestors of modern humans lived prior to the time when these uniparental lineages coalesce (80,000-160,000 years ago).
    http://racehist.blogspot.com/2009/09...out-again.html

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    The whole evidence for the out-of-Africa theory fits in a shoebox. Its somewhat daring to pronounce the origin of mankind on that shoebox.

    Any cultural evidence is from Eurasia, Africa shows a blank here.

    We all think that the earth looked like it looks today, but that is far from the truth. Waterlevels rise and fall, climatic changes are dramatic and so on.

    I think we don't have enough evidence to say where humankind came from. Even the Evolution theory is nothing but a theory and has never been conclusively proven. There are many inconsistencies with that theory, for example the gaps between new species, according to the evolutiontheory there shouldn't be one but smooth and slow changes into another species. But those slow changes have never been found. The appearance of new species comes as a whole and completed in itself. Minor changes happened through climatic differences or isolation, but not the creation of a new species.


    Goethe gives a good perspective through his morphological studies. He compares the head of apes through the changes to human. He observed that the further the being is developed so less pronounced are the features (mouth, eyebrows, cheekbones, etc)

    It seems thus, that the change came from the inside not through genetical jumps. That makes it more believable that a 'heavenly' influence has taken first and second there was a change in the looks. It seems that the inner shaped the outer, not versa visa.

    Our perception of what is reality is not more than a convention in whateverybody believes. A closer look just shows it is nothing but illusion. Basically that, what every religion says.

    As scientists are definition materialists, they don't include a view different than a materialistic one. That means they come to a point where their science doesn't explain things anymore. The trick than is that have a bogus theory which explains some but not all and then everybody has to show believe in this theory otherwise he is ridiculed.

    just use your own brain and think for yourself and don't care what other think about that.

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    I've always doubted the story of a single origin place of humans. The animal kingdom showed that similar species evolved independendly in several areas, just in case of homo (for political correctness' sake) this always was denied.

    Seems the theory ails a bit now...
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    I'd believe Out of asia, into europe, back to western asia and back to europe before I believe any of this africa propaganda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renwein View Post
    - the girl at 8:13 of video 2 gives a typically vacant argument, 'there are no ethnic groups because we all came from africa' I don't understand how anyone takes this to heart. Maybe she hasn't noticed, but since leaving africa the human species has diversified a lot (morphologically comparable to the difference between some seperate species in fact), and a myriad of ethnic groups have been formed (and many have also disappeared).
    Just wanted to point out that recent findings disprove this. Evolution occured in Germany and contact between Africa and Europe was not possible for a large amount of time. Anything that walked out of Africa was not human. We may as well say rats are people in this regard, since we all evolved from that if you go back far enough. It is too bad no one mentioned this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kogen View Post
    Just wanted to point out that recent findings disprove this. Evolution occured in Germany and contact between Africa and Europe was not possible for a large amount of time. Anything that walked out of Africa was not human. We may as well say rats are people in this regard, since we all evolved from that if you go back far enough. It is too bad no one mentioned this.
    I don't think so, honestly the weight of evidence is very much on the 'OOA side' and while people should always be open to other ideas the way many 'nationalists' will jump on the smallest bit of evidence and say it's 'disproved' or 'politically correct propaganda' (when they clearly don't know what they are talking about) is embarrassing IMO, and not something I understand either.

    But either way, which ever case is true, doesn't really matter to me. What matters is we are here, we have formed our unique identity over a long period of time, and we deserve to continue our being long into the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renwein
    I don't think so, honestly the weight of evidence is very much on the 'OOA side' and while people should always be open to other ideas the way many 'nationalists' will jump on the smallest bit of evidence and say it's 'disproved' or 'politically correct propaganda' (when they clearly don't know what they are talking about) is embarrassing IMO, and not something I understand either.

    As you can read above, the OOA theory ails a bit with new finds of the same age when modern human is said to have developed in Africa (long before he started allegedly to wander around) - just that this find has been made in Georgia in the Caucasus region, where also the cradle of Europeans is said to be (which noone really disputes anymore).

    Taking this into account, it now seems possible that the modern human has developed at least in two different places independently. Probably both are descendends of homo erectus or some other pre-version of humans, which would explain why we still share quite a lot of genes with Africans. Fact is though that neither the "adaption to other climate theory" nor the "mutation theory" really can explain the vast differencies that exist. After all, the genetic difference between blacks and europeans/asians is almost the same amount that parts us from chimpansies (around 2%). A bit more than one percent though counts in to several million alleles and gene places to be affected either by adaption and re-forming/adjusting or by mutation, which both require stabilisation then to create a stable phenotype difference. The generations from around 1,8mio years ago until today are just not enough for this to be possible.

    In fact, a mutation rate f.e. on this rate would have us extincted long ago. Mutations occure 'by chance' and usually are a defect. This scenario though requires that the mutation does not produce a defect but an advantage, and that each new generation would have one or more of these 'positive' mutations that immediatly stabilise in order to be passed on. That's utter nonsense and not even reproducable under laboratory circumstances.

    The OOA theory had this flaw from the start, with or without the new finds, because this theory cannot explain the differencies, and it doesnt really explain the routes of migration or how people millions of years ago should have been able to cross mountain ranges like the Ural, when north of it was just massive ice for thousands of kilometers and south of it endless deserts (and why the Hel they should have gone through both).

    I dont take this as 'proven' yet, but is adds more doubts to OOA theory that seems anyway very unlikely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    Even the Evolution theory is nothing but a theory and has never been conclusively proven.
    Just to clear something up: a theory is a tested hypothesis that has produced consistent results, and is therefore believed to be true, but still has the possibility of being proven false. Scientific "theories" are never scientific "facts".

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    Thanks Ocko. For all we know humans could have originated on an island somewhere that has long since sunk into the ocean and been melted into magma. And yes the continents were different back then, climate etc.

    Does anybody have a link to studies showing that there is a 2% genetic difference between blacks and caucasions?

    About evolution not being "proven" from what I've studied it pretty much is proven. I think they are reluctant to admit this because of all the bible thumpers and people who get angry and violent when they hear it. About what you say about a slow gradual change this is really what the general public thinks but when you study evolution you know this is not true. Maybe some scientists in the 1800s had this idea, but here is basically how evolution occurs:
    One person born with a radically new gene. That group must then segregate, and inbreed then breed the old genes out of their population. It could happen in a few generations. This new group will be so very small in size that it would be highly unlikely any of them would be found.

    they have observed speciation in fruit flies. So yes we can create two different species its a proven aspect of evolution. They have also proven that species with different numbers of chromosomes can come out of each other (wild horses and domestic). That's proven. They have proven (watson and crick) that organic compounds can form out of inorganic ones, proving the possibility that life on earth started out of a chemical soup. All aspects of the theory are proven exept one: nobody has ever gotten a time machine, went back and time and watched us evolve. This part will never be possible to prove though.

    But basically in evolution typically for there to be any major changes to occur you would probably have a child that is radically different from its parents. Given some of the weird but extremely rare mutations we've already witnessed its possible. A human being could give birth to a hairy kid that walks on all fours who if that child can possibly mate and then those half breed children inbreed enough to purify the strain could create a seperate species over time. However unlikely these things are if you have enough monkeys hitting a typwriter eventually something coherent will come out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renwein View Post
    I don't think so, honestly the weight of evidence is very much on the 'OOA side' and while people should always be open to other ideas the way many 'nationalists' will jump on the smallest bit of evidence and say it's 'disproved' or 'politically correct propaganda' (when they clearly don't know what they are talking about) is embarrassing IMO, and not something I understand either.

    But either way, which ever case is true, doesn't really matter to me. What matters is we are here, we have formed our unique identity over a long period of time, and we deserve to continue our being long into the future.
    Well I am going by recent studies. If you want to believe out-dated research and pretend you are a Negro, go ahead, but me and the rest of Europe are not. There is not anything to discuss about it.

    Finding the missing link to humans and past species in Germany is not "the smallest bit of evidence".

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