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Thread: Flaws of the Nationalists' Movement

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    Flaws of the Nationalists' Movement

    The Movement of nationalists around the world has several flaws which obviously splits the mass of people into countless subgroups and splittercells. Although all of them hold a certain wish for a 'strong nation', this strong nation has as many shades as there are people explaining what they mean with that.

    This is far from the required unity a movement, that goes essentially against the current real world as it presents itself, needs to get even one step out of the misery we are in.

    A strange thing is that, although most people would agree on the problems our current social reality has, partly even on the solutions to these problems, the movement is not able to create a certain unity, that is, having a certain mass of people working for the same goal, but instead partly even, if they work at all, against each other. Why?

    I admit, to a certain degree I too 'work' against other nationalists. They simply dont hold the same views about that 'strong nation' that I do. Although they are not necessarily my enemies due to that, they are also not my allies. Our views differ so much, often from their basic, that I dont feel any connection.

    My 'strong nation' is build upon the voluntary free will of the participating people therein, who decide to work for the coherence, integrity and identity of this folk's nation. My nation is a necessity, a result of other folks around, whether hostile or friendly doesnt matter, who feel the need to create a border as my folk does. The nation is a political necessity, but still only a vessel, to saveguard the folk within, the nation is not the end in itself.

    Sure, there are other opinions of that, going down from the nation and creating all sorts of theories how this nation should be shaped. My main concern with all of these ideologies is that they demand 'unity with every means' and put the nation, in my view only a result, in front of the cart. The people who form this nation dont matter in any of these ideologies. People are seen at best as servants, ranging through all shades to a mere superfluous object. Truth also doesnt matter, truth is replaced by propaganda to shape the functioning unit to work for the nation, in many shades of these ideologies without that this work repays for the individual.

    It is this reducing to a 'functioning unit' which I cannot agree with. All sorts of weird mockery against whatever outbreak of the ideology defined 'ideal unit' results from that, even hair dyeing is viewed as a degeneration of the ideal unit. There couldnt be anything more ridiculous.

    But there are other mockeries too, which could be viewed, depending on the ideology from which they are viewed, with more serious concern. This starts with subcultures (not that also the national movement would be a subculture) and ends with mockery of homosexuals or the expressed will of euthanasia of retarded or even only old people, who have run out their energy as functioning unit.

    The funny thing is that the very same people who dont have grandparents anymore to watch over their own children advocate such a BS. And I have to assume that it is nothing but envy which drives this wish. I dont have the luxury of grandparents, so others dont deserve this luxury either.

    One thing that goes much on my nerves is the constant bitching against homosexuals. I am no homo, nor do I advocate this lifestyle. But I also dont want to hear any more bitching about that either. Like hair dyeing, it is each people's own decision how they want to live, as long as they are no criminals, it is nothing of concern for the public.

    It is the all-equalling socialism thought behind that I cant agree with, and never will. This enforced equality is not reconcilable with my idea of a free will. Humans are not equal, and I dont want them to be either. And when some of my folk are homosexuals, well, then I will have to deal with that, whether I personally like it or not. Because, when I start to enforce a 'socialist communist equality', I eventually eradicate the free will and reduce the indivdiual to a 'functioning unit', first without free will and at last without any worth.

    And a nation made up of people of no worth is a nation of no worth.

    Ahnenerbe wrote in another thread, that probably by today, if Germany hasnt lost WWII, our folk would consist of 80 percent Nordics. Defining the Nordic in the same thread as so altruistic that they cant take care of themselves anymore. So I wonder of what worth a nation made up of altruistic Nordics would have? There would be noone left to saveguard this folk, and the nation it makes up. This nation would be exposed to all sorts of risks, mainly because this over-altruistic folk would try to save the entire world.

    Although I'd probably agree that the gracile Nordic might be the definition of the perfect human being, I remember the - often forgotten or ignored - critics of the downfall of Atlantis is that a perfect people becomes decadent, so decadent that it is doomed to go down. Why does a perfect folk become - inevitably - decadent? Because it lacks the mirror in which its glory shines. Of what worth is perfectionism when there is nothing un-perfect anymore? The folk's immunesystem against internal and external taboos vanishes. The decadense is the result of this singularity. There is no white when there is no black, there is no light when there is no more shadow, and there is no more right when there is no more wrong. This singularity itself is the decadence, and it is an irreversible state, so dooms the folk to fall.


    When our gods created the society (in contrast to the religious notion of creating the human itself), they created three castes or ranks. Jarls, Karls and Thralls. Why? Because the gods were wise people.

    The Jarls, the noble caste, was made for the fine arts, for all sorts of creativity from literature to battles. They were made to shine in their glory which they earned (not had by their rank alone, they still needed to earn their glory!).

    The Karls, the free men, are basically what we would call today the middle class. They create the infrastructure of a folk, they run businesses, create and invent, trade and create the folk's wealth, the society's foundation.

    The Thralls, the servant caste, are those who are made to help the other two ranks. Thralls were servents for the Jarls as well as for the Karls. But they are no slaves, they are not 'owned' and they didnt have less personal rights than the other, as a human as member of the folk. Sure, they were excluded from the decisions about laws and kings, probably they were not even allowed to own land. But in return for their work and servantship they got a place to live, got food and were free to leave their masters when they werent treated well.

    Now a society requires a certain structure to function. An overrepresentation of Jarls would cause the same inbalance like an overrepresentation of Thralls. The main part of the folk to function is required to be made up of Karls, which give with their creation of the folk's wealth the Jarls the possibility to concentrate on their glory while the Thralls are required to keep both ranks running.

    While this only depicts the outer appearance of the functioning, it also prevents the singularity. The noble Jarls shine in the mirror of the lower ranks, the free men are free to earn glory in both ranks too. If one would take out the Thralls out of this structure it would result in a major shift within this society. Karls would be pushed into the rolls of the Thralls, the work they have done still must be done, and while the Karls shift down the ranking system, they would in their own dissolving process also tear apart the Jarls (we remember, they are the fine arts, the literature, the art and basically the bearer of the cultural ideal. But a hero is only so long a hero as long there are also people who are no heroes). With the dissolving Karl rank the foundation on which the Jarls are able to actually concentrate on their role would break away.


    However, returning to the flaws in the movement, aiming to create an all equal unit society will not work. We need the diversity among our folk, we even need the criminals therein to remember what is wrong and what to strive for. We need the mirror of imperfectionism to remember, and value, the perfect. We need the taboo breaking individuals to remember the importance of the taboos.

    If we eradicate the differencies among us, we eradicate the ground on which our values and virtues and taboos are defined. While there are rules to be followed by all people and if they dont get punished according to the weight of their misdemeanor, there are, and this is what this article was thought to be about, other things which do not have an influence on the coherence of a society.

    A criminal damages the coherence, he disobeys the rules. Other's property is exactly that, other's property, if someone decides to steal or willingly destroy that, this very act, along with the loss of the value thereof, causes damage to the society, at least to the affected people and in a chain of events affects society. Same goes for damage done, in whatever form, to other people.

    But what damage is caused by someone who dyes his or her hair? What damage is caused by homosexuals? What damage is caused by an old person?

    This 'damage' comes only into existence in the imagination of an all-equal functioning unit, which is likewise painted by national socialism and national communism, which define the society and nation as the 'greater good' for which each and every of this functioning units has to work. And only for that greater good. Personal interests dont matter, personal talents or lack thereof dont matter, the unit is placed where it is needed, whether it can fulfill the requirements or not or even overqualifies for this place. The individual is eradicated, and when the individual is eradicated, the free will is eradicated too. Within this definition of the greater good the society itself even is placed below the so abstract nation that the abstraction has filtered out any worth.

    But all these concepts put the cart before the horse. All these abstractions seem to be nothing but a replacement for the Allmighty God, which left a weird kind of void when it vanished. These concepts lifted abstract concepts onto Gods place, communism, socialism, nationalism with their respective abstracts Community, Altruism and Nation.

    But a community can only come to existence by individuals forming this community. The community can never step ahead the individual, or even nullifying the individual. Without the individuals, there is no community. There is no nation without the individuals forming and creating this nation. Community and Nation are outgrowths of individuals being to a certain degree similar, having similar perceptions of right and wrong, their Community and Nation are not the source thereof but the manifestation of the folk's achievements.

    Only strong individuals can form a strong community and a strong nation. And strong individuals have a free will, following their talents and interests, and because they are following their talents and interests, they will give their best in their specific field of interest, out of their free will, thus contributing, according to their level of ability, the best this individual has to offer to the community, and finally also to their nation.

    Making the nation itself a religion nullifies the worth of this expression of the folk. In all of these concepts the nation is a hollowed abstract, when it was thought to be the vessel of the folk's will and abilities and talents.

    It seems as should the shape of the box shape the folk, when the truth is that the folk shapes the content which is placed in the folk's will shaped box. But a folk is a living and breathing and developing thing in itself, the coherence of the individuals of that folk shapes an ever new box. The box always has the shape of folk's body.

    As soon as such a box becomes worshipped like a god, no content will fit into the box anymore and the box cannot be reshaped, prevents developing and growing. It will be stuck in a monolithic, lifeless shape, because the abstract aims to shape the concrete, the lifeless aims to shape the living.

    At this stage all the suppressions comes into existence that are inherent in all these ideologies. The free will, the individual, which once formed that vessel at a certain point in time, becomes the ultimate enemy of the box. The box is called the 'greater good' when it in fact is neither good nor great.

    To keep its 'greatness' it enforces all sorts of personal regulations and limitations onto the individual and instructions for the 'perfect functioning unit', eradicating step by step the individual's free will, then the individual itself, and finally the box will be an empty, worthless shade of something that once was.

    Nietzsche once said: be careful when you cast the devil out of you lest you cast out the best thing in you.

    Someone else said: preserving culture is the preservation of the knowledge and understanding of the fire and passing on thereof, not the the worship of its ashes.

    In these ideologies the devil is identified as the individual, the free will, that is in these ideologies misinterpreted as the will, without exception, to work against the folk, the community, the society and nation.
    I say, the free will is the source of the folk body, and therefor the source of the society, the society rules and laws and ultimately, the source of the nation. As long as this vessel for the individual's as well as the folk's (community's) will saveguards the people therein and is an expression thereof, the vast majority of the individuals will use their free will and everything they else have to offer to work FOR this vessel, while every generation will reshape that vessel according to their level of development.

    If the free will is suppressed, there will be no more development. Inventions and science are results of individuals following by their free will their talents and interests, and yes, often scientists are obesssed with their specific profession, becoming a devil in the eyes of that hollowed abstraction. All of these words, occupation, profession, contain a certain personal, individual element, many people dont only have any occupation, but in fact are occupied by their interests in their specific field. Hel, they have fun and find enjoyment in their occupation. Fun and enjoyment are the prerequisites to achieve something, and probably even invent new things or optimise existing.

    Fun and enjoyment are deeply scorned by socialists, communists and also nationalists, these are feelings defined as evil, because they are seen as distraction from the greater go(o)d, which the 'functioning unit' should serve. A functioning unit has not to have fun or find enjoyment and pleasure in their work. But it is these devils which cause development or simply create great achievements, not the de-emotioned function units. They only can keep the status quo, and that only for a certain time. Then there is nothing but a hollow box full of cold ashes left, which has long lost its worth.

    Many of the advocators of any of these ideologies argue against the free will basis of everything with their imagination about in what other people find pleasure. They think, if the sole basic for every decision would be fun and enjoyment and the personal taste, noone would do works like serving, street cleaning or in general those works considered the 'lower' occupations.

    First, in 'my' three ranks society the need for the free mens, the Karls, to which I would count the majority of us thinking people here, to do a certain kind of work, this question would not occure in the form it does occure in our current structure of society. Certain works would simply be distributed to the Thralls by default.

    But there are people who find pleasure in cleaning jobs as well as there are people who find pleasure in administrating archieves or as coroners, some people are born servants without that this would turn them into a lesser esteemed individual. My prefered example for that are the British Butlers. To become a British Butler the individual has to fulfill a whole bunch of requirements, they need to have an excellent education (intelligence), but they also have to be loyal and to a certain degree even dovote. When the butler is the last remnant of an (idealised) Thrall, then the Thralls are indeed the adhesive of the fabrik of society, filling all the positions which require devotion. Teachers, kindergarten nannies, gardeners. There is a vast field in which they would find their place. We still have people today finding pleasure in all of these 'lower' occupations.

    This definition doesnt even exclude, in an absolute sense, the Karls from choosing such an occupation themself, the boundaries between these ranks were most likely not static, specially not for the free men, also not into the other direction, not becoming a Jarl, but earning the same recognition and being able to take a similar position within the societal structure.

    Well, again I distracted from my own topic, but I think I should explain where my views of certain things come from and in which values they grow, otherwise they are not understandable.

    What made me write this article was indeed the constant mocking of homosexuals. Although I agree that it shouldnt become an ideal, nothing will ever change their natural tendency and habitude. This is not an illness which can be healt nor is it something which can be trained out of them with reeducation. It is not even a mental defect. It is perfectly common among mammals. So why mock them? Why even hate them? Do they harm to anyone?

    The thought behind is the socialist or communist enforced equality, which is neither reconcilable with my idea of freedom and free will nor with the way I think the society is entitled to order people's life. This is a person's private decision, as well as the decision for a certain wallpaper color is a person's private decision. There is absolutely no difference.

    Homosexuality is not infective. Noone becomes a homo because his or her neighbor is a homo or they have seen a homo-couple walking hand in hand down the street.

    Therefor this topic with all its funny 'reasonings' is the perfect example for pointing out the difference between a free society and a socialist's or communist's society. In a free society with people caring about their own backyard this isnt of any concern. In a society which fears the individual, gays are perceived as the 'paragon of transgressing and anti-social behavior'. Regardless of their individual worth, their work for the community, their often social engagement which cant be said about the people who find them 'disgusting' or even hate them and hunt them down, posing bodily violence upon them and proove with that only their own antisocial behavior and serious mental defects.
    This disgust is solely based in the false perception these people would be entitled to order other people's life. They are not. If someone is gay or not is not of any other person's concern. Nor is my wallpaper color, the way I dress or wear my hair, what I read, think, listen to, what I eat or not eat. The list is endless, filled with things that are not in the realm of the 'Community rules' and of which the society is not entitled to interprete them as transgression thereof.


    This concentration of perfectly unimportant thingies devides the movement to a degree that, viewing onto it from an outer standpoint, it poses the question if there is a movement at all. There will be no solution to the problems we are facing when we dont learn to accept the indivual, and not only accept, but even strengthen the individual. Only a strong individual who knows what to fight for will fight at all.

    The heathens have no problem at all with accepting the individual notion of a person's way to his belief, whether they call them Asatruar, Vanatruar, Odinists, Forn Siðr, whatever. Even the 'big religious' organisations like the Folk Assembly admit and actually support the individual interpretation of the faith. Whatever shape someone has as his belief, they are perceived as kin. They are valued as individuals, not least because of their consciousness about our folk's faith and their active support thereof.

    Supporting individuality within the faith's realm can not end at its doors, we cant demand individuality within the faith and prohibiting it within the social realm. As I said before, Cult (faith) and Culture (social and societal structures) are the same, they grew out of the same root, they are just a different expression, the one being more practical, the other more spiritual, of the very same essence. The essence of the entirety of our folk's achievements, thoughts, knowledge, wisdom. And this individuality is not a modern invention, it is the very basic of polytheism.

    This unity in diversity is perfectly normal among heathens, they dont bitch about unimportant thingies against each other, while in many nationalists circles even minor deviations in often vast fields of the specific ideology prevents even the thought about unity.

    This is, I believe, because of these misguided and de-individualised ersatz gods called ideologies, pink-dreaming about a 'perfect' society with 'perfect', oh no, not individuals, only functioning units. Their major flaw is that they are ersatz gods for the imported, alien 'Allmighty God of the Bible', which doesnt value the individual but only counts the numbers of its worshippers. While this God was a destroying factor to the fabrik of our society, the ersatz gods are even more destroying. Like the 'Allmighty God' these ideologies are nothing but a monolithic deathcult, worshipping the ashes of long gone times and ages, fearing any questioning of the rightfulness of their monoliths and basically fear development and change and ultimately even fear life itself.

    I fail to see how the 'movement' will ever reach unity, based upon whatever denomination of ideology, when we all as we are here are individuals and only can be individuals because our current time allows us to be, and when all of these ideologies would ultimately eradicate our individuality.

    A main concern many people have with the current world is the enforced equality of all people, regardless of race and ability. Agreed, but without our individuality we wouldnt even notice that there is something wrong with that. As a functioning unit as promoted by all of these ideologies, and the current world is nothing else as such a misleaded ideology, we would even lack the basic ability to notice that there is something wrong.

    Therefor I believe that only a strong individual forming by its free will the future society will be able to actually work against the current development. Truth must be our guidance not propaganda, and the rightfulness of our future society must be right in itself, not in accordance with weird philosopher's monoliths or enforced by soldiers who hunt down our own people for the sake of these monolithic deathcults.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    Homo's are sick perverts whether you can admit it or not. You're over blown sense of morality and fair play will bit you one day. The world is a very cold place no place for the weak or meek or homo's.
    As for the movement's needs .... they can only be met by a strong leader who can enforce laws that ensures whites remain on top of the food chain.

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    MO-MO-MO-MONSTERPOSTING!

    Good thing you critizise such unneccessesary behaviour like the bashing of homosexuals or hair-dying. As if those points were of any importance..

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Fun and enjoyment are deeply scorned by socialists, communists and also nationalists, these are feelings defined as evil,
    Here I have to disagree. The socialist/communist/nationalist authorities surely weren't interested in suppressing the people's enjoyment. If you take away their pleasures it's likely they start a revolution against you.


    Still, the biggest problem about the nationalist movement is that there is no movement, I think. There are people around the world who dream of a better world, yes, but none of them really seems to work torwards that goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stimme
    MO-MO-MO-MONSTERPOSTING!
    Ehm, ja, sorry

    And it is unsorted, and probably even misses some more or less important transitions from one thought to the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stimme
    Here I have to disagree. The socialist/communist/nationalist authorities surely weren't interested in suppressing the people's enjoyment. If you take away their pleasures it's likely they start a revolution against you.
    The context in which I wrote this sentence actually is important, at least, in my view onto this.

    Was Nero's dictatorship less destroying to the folk's soul just because of his installment of a 'Carrot and Stick' approach? Indeed, people found pleasure in all sorts of distraction from them being suppressed by this dictatorship, throwing people to the lions, brutal gladiator fights and whatever else for public 'enjoyment'.

    This is not what I meant though. I doubt any halfway mentally 'normal' human being finds pleasure in torn apart people or that basically this can be described as 'pleasure' or 'enjoyment'. This is the carrot that makes people believe their subjugation is the less bad and noisome fate of the two. This doesnt make it a good one though.

    My idea of pleasure and enjoyment in this context emerges from the people itself. This is actually not the same like fun - as in funny Simpsons movie or so - but a satisfaction creating engagement in something (occupation, profession, hobby, family,...), something that creates pleasure for the individual, making it a happy individual, as well as it creates whatever kind of worth, so to say as a sideeffect, for the community.

    I believe that this is a mutual process. While the community is the vessel of the entirety of individuals and indeed deserves attention and an active working for, only a 'happy', satisfied individual will actually continuously do that work, out of quite 'egoistic' reasons, because this vessel offers it the opportunity to contribute, in the boundaries of its abilities and professions and limited by its talents, to this vessel, thus creating an environment for its enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction.

    Replace the enjoyment with necessity and we end in our current, dissolving society. The society has become a demanding entity without that the contribution repays for the individual. Quite the opposite, the demaning entity never gets enough, leaving unhappy and unsatisfied individuals who dont see the worth in that supposed saveguarding vessel anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stimme
    Still, the biggest problem about the nationalist movement is that there is no movement, I think. There are people around the world who dream of a better world, yes, but none of them really seems to work torwards that goal.
    Yes, because they basically lack the uniting vision of said goal.

    There are countless shades of a nation, but the major flaw of them being that they are in their essence nothing but the above mentioned 'demanding entity', the greater good, which has to be worshipped and which de-individualises the mass of its worshippers, degrading the individual to a functioning unit.

    It is not surprising that only few, if any, other people besides the designer of the specific vision can agree with it.

    Therefor my idea to try another way, that of the strong individual creating a likewise strong vessel 'as a sideeffect' if you will. Heathens have a long time experience with uniting factors and personal factors, that do not necessarily affect the uniting factors. It doesnt even matter, in the society aspect, whether the individual believes in the gods or not, but I consider the pure social effects, the society this creates, such a strong vessel that it has its value and worth on its own, without being an ideology (something that sooner or later always becomes a dead monolith), containing a doctrine or demand worship like the 'greater good ideologies'.

    I believe that if people hold something dear out of esteem of its worth and value, not least for themselve, they are more likely to fight for it and defend it against internal as well as external dangers.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    So you, if I understood you correctly, dream of a society in which the individual does whatever it wishes to do. And it isn't just something that pleases said individual but also the community which, in return, recompences the individual for what it did.
    That pretty much sounds like the perpetuum mobile of the societies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stimme View Post
    So you, if I understood you correctly, dream of a society in which the individual does whatever it wishes to do. And it isn't just something that pleases said individual but also the community which, in return, recompences the individual for what it did.
    That pretty much sounds like the perpetuum mobile of the societies.
    Eh, no, not exactly
    Although, to a certain degree such a society, its structure would indeed become a 'self-runner', but as soon as people stop working for it, it would break down. It is more like a mill which needs constant water flow to run.

    And 'whatever the individual wishes' is also not really correct. This would include finally also the willful transgression of rules and laws. If that happens, the society already has dissolved itself into non-existence (as a society tolerating this hardly deserves the name 'society')

    No, what I mean is a constant mutual process, in which the repay flows mutually into both directions.

    Some people would argue that this 'vision' lacks the perfectionism, but I say, the perfectionism lacks the practicability, as it excludes ninety percent or more of all imperfect individuals. A society that excludes the majority of its people isnt a society either.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    Declaring homosexuality as being perfectly normal and acceptable is in itself an ideological, i.e subjective, standpoint. Either they are normal and acceptable or they are not, the liberals and socialists say they are, I say they are not. You want to question the reasoning behind shunning homosexuals, another person wants to question the reasoning behind shunning narcotics use, another person wants to question the reasoning behind shunning beastiality, another person wants to question the reasoning behind shunning pedophilia, another person wants to question the reasoning behind shunning transsexuality. What makes your reasoning different from theirs and their respective pet-degeneracy?

    You have decided for yourself that homosexuality is something we all need to learn to accept because it is simply part of life and completely normal and that, somehow, our refusal to do so is hurting our society. I don't give much for the authority of individual intellectuals who discredit tradition and want us to accept a new and modernistic value system (which is no different in its foundation from that of your average socialist or liberal party manifesto) because they think their opinions hold greater authority than those of tradition and heritage. I'm not buying it.

    You consider traditional values and morals a problem whilst I on the other hand view the blending of cultural marxist concepts with preservationism as a problem, and a major one at that. The nationalist movement, or scene, includes a rather broad political spectrum. This makes conflict inevitable as we will have different outlooks, world views and values. There are certain areas where we will find ourselves more or less in agreement, but then there are others where we will find ourselves completely at odds with one another.

    I come from the right side of the spectrum, I was drawn towards the nationalist scene primarily because today's right wing isn't what it used to be and because I found that the nationalist scene was home to alot of the ideological thinking that had become rejected by the mainstream (former) right. I would not be here if the right wing truly had been right wing.

    Many others in the nationalist scene are coming from a leftist point of view (more or less socialist or more or less liberal), they are looking to blend leftist ideology with those parts of right wing traditionalist or conservative thought which they consider appealing to them and thus is this strange ideological brew created where people from all parts of the spectrum come looking for essentially the same things but with different ideological backgrounds or foundations, as well as disagreements. Some of these individuals will have accepted parts of the cultural marxist, socialist, communist or liberal doctrine on social or economical issues and bring these ideas with them into the nationalist community. This is a recipe for conflict and clashes.

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    What is this Nationalists Movement you talk of? We have none here

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    This what you call traditions once was 'a new and modernistic value system' in our societies too. It brought a subjugating moral to us which was and still is not reconcilable with the free will and freedom based society we once had.
    But this is not supposed to become another discussion about christianity.

    When you can point out a real and objectively measurable damage to the fabrik of society caused by the presence of homosexuals, I will probably re-evaluate my stance.
    Objectivity in your reasoning should not contain words like 'disgust', 'sick' or other personal perceptions, when you decide to use 'perverse' I want you to define 'normal sexual behavior' as contrast. When you still think it is sick I want you to deliver proofs for that.

    The main difference between the other examples like pedophilia or bestiality is that in a homosexual relation are two matured individuals involved which follow their free will and their nature voluntary.
    This can hardly be said of an abused child or an abused animal. So these are things that actually compare apples with oranges.

    Free will excludes by its very definition 'social marxism', so I'm not going to argue against that because my article doesnt give any foundation for that attack. I assume you stopped to read after the paragraph which notes the bashing of homos.

    But it is really something that simply goes on my nerves. There are countless real problems that we face and actually should start to solve, because if we dont they will dissolve our very societies. The sick part is, that many 'nationalists' are more likely to agree with muslims due to their stance to homosexuality than they are likely to unite to fight for OUR societies. And that when Islam is the biggest and most dangerous threat we currently face.

    And, I dont care about any 'written tradition' or 'written ideology'. They are monolithic deathcults, and a monolithic (unmovable) death (lifedenying) cult (worship of the ashes for the sake of worshipping and obedience) will not solve any of our current problems and threats.
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    An interesting and thought provoking post, Velvet, and I'm glad you expanded on your first post with a second one, in order to clarify a few things, which is a necessity given all the subjects you toch upon.

    Still, the sort of system that should come to existence because of the importance you find in free will, is not entirely clear to me - which is understandable, as it is not a subject that will fit easily into one post. If you're defending the organization of society around national democratic principles, or national anarchist ones, then I can support you. If you're in favor of gay rights, but not gay marriage, then I'm happy too.

    However, the problem with free will is that it is murky concept - being the luxurious byproduct of a sufficiently advanced society, advanced above the level of hunter-gatherers that is.

    We are the product of our genes and the influences of our environment, I'd say that free will is overestimated anyway, but for all practical purposes I think it is okay to pretend that free will exists, at least when we're discussing the construction of laws, so the individual can indeed explore, and find enjoyment through exploration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    But all these concepts put the cart before the horse. All these abstractions seem to be nothing but a replacement for the Allmighty God, which left a weird kind of void when it vanished. These concepts lifted abstract concepts onto Gods place, communism, socialism, nationalism with their respective abstracts Community, Altruism and Nation.
    God, gods, the nation, all demand worship, and even the concept of free will, too. If not worshipped, they will be forgotten and become irrelevant.
    It's about maintaining balance. By reducing the sanctity of God(s)/religion and the nation, and promoting free will as more holy, it could be said you're worshiping the idol of free will, and only that idol, which, I think, is not positive, neither for the individual or his nation. Maybe it will alienate the individual even more than it already is.

    Moreover, the concept of free will is raped and hijacked by our political adversaries, and they, like the vast majority of any given Germanic nation, don't associate free will with a folkish philosophy. On the contrary, it means being FREE from the folk, cutting the ties with traditions and family, it's all about indivualism, not the individual, not his tribe.

    Of what good is free will, if a person doesn't want what he needs, can't obtain it, or if he doesn't know what he needs. What if the strong individuals dominating society are corrupt, and offer the folk only what they think it needs? Free will is the doctrine of constant 'needing', not of being content. No biggie, as long as you got your priorities right.

    Celebrating 'independence day', having a list of national heroes, with their own monuments, is a form of worship too. Commemorating national myths as well. A nation or folk can't exist without a national memory. The past has still its rights, and is of tremendous importance to most (if not all) nationalist factions, so they can legitimize their own existence and goals, and that of the nation..

    There will always be dissidence. Even the national project suggested by you, Velvet, will need laws. Factories. Hierarchy. Shitty jobs. Political decisions will affect the lifes of many, creating opposition.

    The idea of finding joy through 'jobs' (as opposed to 'work') goes way over my head. Jobs are the deathknell of the human spirit.

    No little girl dreams of cleaning to make a living when she grows up and no boy about hours and hours of standing next to an assembly line, amidst the noise, isolating you from your fellow man, just to make enough money to participate in our consumer society - and survive - albeit barely.

    Chances are that the job one ends up with is not gonna be the prefered one, either because of lack of personal talent, education, brains or your political loyalty... or because the failure of state/society to provide the folk with something interesting to do. In our society of eternal boredom, that is the case, in part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    Only strong individuals can form a strong community and a strong nation. And strong individuals have a free will, following their talents and interests, and because they are following their talents and interests, they will give their best in their specific field of interest, out of their free will, thus contributing, according to their level of ability, the best this individual has to offer to the community, and finally also to their nation.
    Strong individuals are a minority, they always will be. In our day and age, the strong individuals are part of the very system we're up against. We serve, they rule. They tax, we pay. They decide the direction our society will take, we obey.

    If I would be offered the choice to trust in the free will of man, or to believe in how absolutely rotten he is, I will always go for the latter. Stupidity on a vast scale, and the rawness of a mass movement, are your best bets to get something intelligent and worthwile done on this planet.
    “As brothers and sisters we knew instinctively that if we were going to stand in darkness, best we stand in a darkness we had made ourselves.” - Douglas Coupland

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