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Thread: Helen of Troy / Blondism

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    Post Helen of Troy / Blondism

    In the recent Troy film, shouldn't we have expected a Baltid/Med from the 2nd millenium BC in Sparta? Of course she had to be the most beautiful woman in the world. Here both Diane Kruger and Brad Pitt are stupid people who rely on their passions, as befits blond(e)s in Hollywood. Historical accuracy is not even a question here I take it?

    Any suggestions of celebrities more fitting a historically accurate portrayal?

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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    Reference Pics: Diane looks a little Dinarid eh?

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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    My (limited) understanding is that the Greeks came to Greece in three waves. It was just after the first wave that the Trojan War took place (am I right?). These Greek people came from the Balkans. This may mean that there were Nordic people or Nordic-looking people (Danubian, possilby Corded) in that first wave.

    I have not see the movie. But, as I said on another thread, I am having a little problem believing Brad Pit as Achilles. Achilles would have scared me. Brad Pit doesn't scare me. Achilles would have been tall and probably muscular in an athletic sort of way. Brad Pit looks like a soft Hollywood actor. A truely "hard" man usually has some trace of his life on his face or body. This is intangalbe and I know it but I believe it to be true nevertheless. Further, Brad Pit looks like an American. Again, I can't say why but I believe this to be true. If I met such a man at an airport, I would immediately assue he understood English.

    Helen is usually said to be blonde. I don't remember this in the Iliad but my "Iliad" was a translated summary. In the 1950s a movie was made called "Helen of Troy" which was good. In it Helen was blonde but I believe she was an Italian, or Greek or Balkan actress.

    One more thing. A few years ago a British man did a documentary on the Trojan War as a reality. He was educated in the Classics (I forget his name). One point he made was that Paris was 50 years old when he took Helen. How old is the Paris in the current film?

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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    You have to remember that the world back then wasn't the current stable mixture of physical types it is today, the world was younger you could find many more examples of racial purity. When tribes would migrate a whole new racial type could be introduced to a new territory, the spartans themselves came as conqueres from the balkans, they conquered the messinians, which we call helots. The messinians were the original people, they also always outnumbered the spartans by like 15 to 1(Something like that I can't remember), if you then realize that the spartans died because of their lack of fertility due to their cultural practices one can come to the conclusion that they contributed nothing genetically to the region today. I have read in books that the spartans were said to be from the purest dorian stock(original indo-european greeks), blonde and blue-eyed, from their bones they also appear to have been a northern people. I welcome anyone to correct me it's I am wrong it's been a while since I read about the greeks.

    Brad pitt might be viewed as being to 'pretty', but greeks back then really appreciated a beautiful man, maybe even more than women. I do think he's a very good actor, better than russel crowe or colin farrel.

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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff

    One more thing. A few years ago a British man did a documentary on the Trojan War as a reality. He was educated in the Classics (I forget his name). One point he made was that Paris was 50 years old when he took Helen. How old is the Paris in the current film?
    If we go by Homeros, Paris is indeed young and so he is in the movie. He's in his early 20s as far as I know. Homer doesn't say it explicitly, but he makes it clear that he is a young, and a very handsome prince. His older brother Hector is not too old to start with and he's still considerably older than him. Of course, Homer's version of the Trojan War (or anything else he writes) is an epic narrative and is basically mythical. Although they had taken out the mythological factor in the movie, in the book the Gods play an important role during the course of the war.

    I haven't seen or heard of the documentary but would love to see it. Any chance you might remember its name?

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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiudans
    In the recent Troy film, shouldn't we have expected a Baltid/Med from the 2nd millenium BC in Sparta? Of course she had to be the most beautiful woman in the world. Here both Diane Kruger and Brad Pitt are stupid people who rely on their passions, as befits blond(e)s in Hollywood. Historical accuracy is not even a question here I take it?

    Any suggestions of celebrities more fitting a historically accurate portrayal?
    The Eruli (Heruli, Heruls) claim their ancestors to have been of Troy (or at least some of them) who, (the Eruli) in their turn were the proto-Vikings. If this is true, then those of Troy would have been Nordid. Blondes, redheads, blue-eyed, green-eyed, tallness would have been of the population. In which Brad Pitt would be a perfect Achilles, and in fact, in my opinion, was an excellent Achilles in the movie.

    Read The History of Russia at: http://clanrossi.com/OriginsofRossi.htm

    Very interesting work done by Hakon Stang.

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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    Quote Originally Posted by RusViking
    The Eruli (Heruli, Heruls) claim their ancestors to have been of Troy (or at least some of them) who, (the Eruli) in their turn were the proto-Vikings. If this is true, then those of Troy would have been Nordid. Blondes, redheads, blue-eyed, green-eyed, tallness would have been of the population. In which Brad Pitt would be a perfect Achilles, and in fact, in my opinion, was an excellent Achilles in the movie.

    Read The History of Russia at: http://clanrossi.com/OriginsofRossi.htm

    Very interesting work done by Hakon Stang.
    Well the Romans themselves claimed to be descendents of Aeneas and some Troians, nothing new under the sun.
    if this is true then the Troians would have been Mediterraneans.
    Blondinism is not a Nordics' exclusive so some of them might have ben blonds anyway.

    "E tutti si scandalizzano quando sentono dire: quel tale tipo di mammifero o di uccello ormai è sparito dalla faccia della terra, non lo vedremo più; è una grave perdita. Certo, si tratta di gravissime perdite.
    Ma non sarebbe forse più grave se sparisse una comunità umana?? --Bruno Salvadori

    Seven pictures of northern European males and seven pictures of northern African males were presented randomly via a computer screen to 82 Italian female undergraduates of the University of Padua, Italy.
    Each picture depicted a full frontal face with a neutral facial expression. Participants were asked to classify each picture as either northern Italian or southern Italian.
    On average, the seven pictures depicting northern Europeans were classified as northern Italians 81% of the time. The seven pictures depicting northern Africans were classified as southern Italians 83%
    of the time.



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    Post Re: Helen of Troy / Blondism

    Good point about early "greek" blondism. At least the mythmakers understood the possibility of "blond" hair, so its use to portray Helen, etc. could not be entirely fabricated. I went to perseus.tufts.edu to find some passages:

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...Homer,%20Iliad

    Iliad, book 1, l.197

    Fair-hair, of Akhilles:

    stê** d' opithen*, xanthês de komês* hele Pêleïôna
    oiôi phainomenê*:

    "She stood behind him, and seized the son of Peleus by his fair hair"


    book 2, l. 641

    of Meleager:

    ... thane de xanthos Meleagros:
    "fair-haired Meleager was dead"


    in book 3, l. 284

    we are told Menelaos is fair-haired!:

    ei de k' Alexandron kteinêi xanthos Menelaos
    "but should fair-haired Menelaos slay Alexander..."

    he is also called 'xanthos' a few other times.

    in book 5, l.499, Demeter is fair-haired.

    in book 9. l. 406 'xanthos' refers to a chestnut colored horse =?a bay?

    From this perhaps we can conceive of what manner 'fair-haired' is in the Iliad,
    and perhaps in this area and time. chestnut horses appear again in Nestor's war-stories. Of course 'xanthos' was no doubt often employed as a simple metrical filler. One more instance is of 'fair-haired' daughter Agamede. Predominantly in the Iliad, as well as the Odyssey, Menelaus, the arrogant chief, is called blond, almost as common as an epithet. Or whatever 'xanthos' meant.

    L-S call it "yellow":

    xanthos , ê, on, yellow, of various shades, freq. with a tinge of red, brown, auburn, lampron eruthrôi leukôi te meignumenon Pl.Ti.68b ; esti de to x. en têi iridi chrôma metaxu tou te phoinikou kai prasinou chrômatos Arist.Mete.375a11 ; xanthon ereuthesthai AP12.97 (Antip.) : in Ep. mostly used of fair, golden hair, x. komê, chaitê, of Achilles, Il.1.197, 23.141 ; x. triches, of Odysseus, Od.13.399,431 ; karê x. Menelaos (but usu. x. M. alone) 15.133 ; also of women, x. Agamêdê Il.11.740 ; Ariadnê Hes.Th.947 (but x. Dêmêtêr golden corn, Il.5.500, etc.) ; so later, of Helen, Sapph.Supp.13.5 ; of Athena and the Graces, Pi.N.10.7, 5.54 ; of Harmonia, E.Med.834 (lyr.) (but in later Gr. of complexion, Cleom.2.1) ; of dyed hair, tên gunaika tên sôphron' ou dei tas trichas x. poiein Men.610 ; also of horses, bay, hippôn x. karêna Il.9.407 , cf. 11.680 ; x. pôloi Alc.Supp.8.14 , S.El.705 ; boôn xanthas agelas Pi. P.4.149 ; x. leôn Id.Fr.237 ; pôlou dikên, hê tis . . theros theristhêi xanthon auchenôn apo S.Fr.659.4 , etc.


    2. after Hom. of all kinds of objects, artoi x. Xenoph.1.9 ; xanthôn spondas melitôn v.l. in Emp. 128.7 ; iôn x. aktines Pi.O.6.55 ; x. nephela, of gold, ib.7.49 ; meli Simon.47 ; phlox B.Fr.3.4 ; aktines puros Sopat.13 ; elaia A.Pers.617 ; of wine, x. Aphrodisia latax S.Fr.277 (lyr.) ; of a roast pigeon, Ar. Ach.1106 ; xanthaisin aurais agalletai exults in its yellow fragrance, of a fried fish, Antiph.217.22 : in Medic., freq. of bile, Hp.VM19, etc. : Comp. -oteros Pl.R.617a : Sup. -otatos, bostruchoi Pherecr. 189 .


    So, Epic-ly, Menelaos, Achilles, a few others; later, Helen (? but only in Sappho), Athena, Graces, Harmony. Objects such as bread, honey, horses, rays, clouds, gold, wine!, roast pigeon, fragrance of fried fish, and bile. We get a picture later on of a strong yellow color. Note however "tinge of red, brown, auburn" is possible according to L-S perhaps by binary simplification, such as is evinced in reference to metals (red or white) and skin color (black or white), so here in hair (black or fair).

    -Thiudans

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    Blond Greeks

    Alexander the Great, a Macedonian, has typically been depicted as a blond in art. Cleopatra, descendant of his general Ptolemy, was definitely blond. This was constantly brought up by scholars during the period when blacks were claiming her as their own. The Greeks of today, like many Italians, are largely a mixture of the slaves brought to their empires from all over the world.

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