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Thread: Tribe of Dan: Were the Vikings Actually Jews?

  1. #21
    Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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    As with everything pertaining to the Jews and their origins it's all a bit sketchy; the best hypothesis that I've seen is advanced by Manetho, an indigenous Egyptian historian who thrived something during the 3rd century B.C. He makes it pretty clear that the Jews are a remnant of the Hyksos, who were invaders and occupiers of Egypt for several centuries- the people known as the Jews were driven out and founded Jerusalem as their new capital (or simply snatched it from the Jebusites and changed the name from Jebus to Jerusalem).

    The actual timeframe of the 'Exodus' is probably between, say, 1500 BC to 1400 BC- a bit too early for the Sea Peoples- with my choice of the Pharaoh of Oppression being Tuthmosis II (his wife, the famous Hathshepsut, might've been the one who fished 'Moses' out of the Nile and adopted him into the royal family).


    Manetho on the Hyksos
    Manetho, Aegyptiaca., frag. 42, 1.75-79.2

    Hyksos king Tutimaeus [0]. In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others. Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis. He had his seat at Memphis, levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt, and leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions. Above all, he fortified the district to the east, foreseeing that the Assyrians, as they grew stronger, would one day covet and attack his kingdom.

    In the Saite [Sethroite] nome he found a city very favorably situated on the east of the Bubastite branch of the Nile, and called Auaris (= Avaris ) after an ancient religious tradition. This place he rebuilt and fortified with massive walls, planting there a garrison of as many as 240,000 heavy-armed men to guard his frontier. Here he would come in summertime, partly to serve out rations and pay his troops, partly to train them carefully in manoeuvres and so strike terror into foreign tribes.

    Josephus Flavius quoting passages concerning the Hyksos from Manetho's Aegyptiaca

    Josephus Flavius: Against Apion

    Book 1, section 73
    Under a king of ours named Timaus (Tutimaeus) God became angry with us, I know not how, and there came, after a surprising manner, men of obscure birth from the east, and had the temerity to invade our country, and easily conquered it by force, as we did not do battle against them. After they had subdued our rulers, they burnt down our cities, and destroyed the temples of the gods, and treated the inhabitants most cruelly; killing some and enslaving their wives and their children.

    Then they made one of their own king. His name was Salatis [1]; he lived at Memphis, and both the upper and lower regions had to pay tribute to him. He installed garrisons in places that were the most suited for them. His main aim was to make the eastern parts safe, expecting the Assyrians, at the height of their power, to covet his kingdom, and invade it. In the Saite Nome there was a city very proper for this purpose, by the Bubastic arm of the Nile. With regard to a certain theologic notion it was called Avaris. He rebuilt and strengthened this city by surrounding it with walls, and by stationing a large garrison of two hundred and forty thousand armed men there. Salitis came there in the summer, to gather corn in order to pay his soldiers, and to exercise his men, and thus to terrify foreigners.

    After a reign of thirteen years, he was followed by one whose name was Beon [2], who ruled for for forty-four years. After him reigned Apachnas [3] for thirty-six years and seven months. After him Apophis [4] was king for sixty-one years, followed by Janins for fifty years and one month. After all these Assis reigned during forty-nine years and two months.
    These six were their first kings. They all along waged war against the Egyptians, and wanted to destroy them to the very roots.

    "These people, whom we have called kings before, and shepherds too, and their descendants," as he [5] says, "held Egypt for five hundred and eleven years. Then," he says, "the kings of Thebes and the other parts of Egypt rose against the shepherds, and a long and terrible war was fought between them."

    He says further, "By a king, named Alisphragmuthosis [6], the shepherds were subdued, and were driven out of the most parts of Egypt and shut up in a place named Avaris, measuring ten thousand acres." Manetho says, "The shepherds had built a wall surrounding this city, which was large and strong, in order to keep all their possessions and plunder in a place of strength.
    Tethmosis [7], son of Alisphragmuthosis, attempted to take the city by force and by siege with four hundred and eighty thousand men surrounding it. But he despaired of taking the place by siege, and concluded a treaty with them, that they should leave Egypt, and go, without any harm coming to them, wherever they wished. After the conclusion of the treaty they left with their families and chattels, not fewer than two hundred and forty thousand people, and crossed the desert into Syria. Fearing the Assyrians, who dominated over Asia at that time, they built a city in the country which we now call Judea. It was large enough to contain this great number of men and was called Jerusalem.

    Book 1, section 93


    I shall quote Manetho again, and what he writes as to the order of the times in this case. He says "After this people or shepherds [8] had left Egypt to go to Jerusalem, Tethmosis [2], who drove them out, was king of Egypt and reigned for twenty five years and four months, and then died; ..."


    Book 1, section 227

    He [5] writes these words: "Those sent to work in the quarries lived miserably for a long while, and the king was asked to set apart the city Avaris, which the shepherds had left, for their habitation and protection; and he granted them their wish.

    According to the ancient mythology, Avaris was Typho's [10] city. But when these men had entered it, and found it suitable for a revolt, they chose a ruler from among the priests of Heliopolis, whose name was Osarsiph [9]. They swore an oath that they would obey him in all things. The first laws he gave them were that they should not worship the Egyptian gods, nor should they abstain from any of the sacred animals that the Egyptians held in the highest esteem, but could kill them, and that they should not ally themselves to any but those that were of their conspiracy.

    After making such laws as these, and others contrary to Egyptian customs, he ordered that the many the hands at their service to be employed in building walls around the city and prepare for a war with king Amenophis. He colluded with the other priests, and those that were polluted as well, and sent ambassadors to those shepherds expelled by Tethmosis to Jerusalem, informing them of his own affairs, and of the state of those others that had been treated so shamefully, and desired that they would come united to his assistance in this war against Egypt. He also promised their return to their ancient city and land of Avaris and plentiful support for their people; that he would protect them and fight for them if need be, and that the land would easily be subdued. The shepherds were delighted with his message, and assembled two hundred thousand men. Shortly they arrived at Avaris.

    King Amenophis of Egypt, when he heard of their invasion, was perplexed remembering what Amenophis, the son of Papis, had foretold him. He gathered many Egyptians, and deliberated with their leaders, and sent for their sacred animals, above all those worshipped in the temples, and ordered the priests to hide the images of their gods with the utmost care. He also sent his son Sethos, who was also called Ramses, and only five years old, from his father Rhampses to a friend of his. He continued with three hundred thousand of the most warlike Egyptians against the enemy, who met them. But he did not join battle with them, afraid to be fighting against the gods. He turned back and returned to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other sacred animals which he had sent for, and continued to Kush, together with his whole army and masses of Egyptians.

    The king of Ethiopia was under an obligation to him and received him, and took care of the masses that were with him, while the land supplied all that was necessary for the men's sustenance. He gave them cities and villages to live in, that was to be from its beginning during those fatally determined thirteen years. He sent his army to guard the borders of Egypt in order to protect King Amenophis. And this is what happened in Kush."

    This is some of what the Egyptians tell about the Jews, I omit much for brevity's sake. Manetho continues: "Later Amenophis returned from Kush with a great army, his son Ahampses led another army, and both of them joined battle with the shepherds and the polluted people, and conquered them, and killed a great many of them, and pursued them to the borders of Syria." These and more accounts like them are written by Manetho.

    Source: Sorry, I've lost the reference
    [0] Tutimaeus: Also Tutimaios, Timaios, perhaps Dedumos? There were two kings of this name during the Second Intermediate Period, Djedneferre and Djedhetepre, variously assigned to either the 13th or the 16th dynasty. Many historians reject the suggestion that Tutimaeus is identical with Dedumos.
    [1] Salatis: Salitis, possibly Sheshi
    [2] Beon: Yakubber?
    [3] Apachnas: Khyan
    [4] Apophis: Apepi I
    [5] He: Manetho
    [6] Alisphragmuthosis: Kamose
    [7] Tethmosis: Ahmose
    [8] An Egyptian term misunderstood by Flavius: This whole nation was styled Hyksos, that is, Shepherd-kings: for the first syllable Hyk, according to the sacred dialect, denotes a king, as is sos a shepherd; but this according to the ordinary dialect; and of these is compounded Hyksos: but some say that these people were Arabians." Now in another copy it is said that this word does not denote Kings, but, on the contrary, denotes Captive Shepherds, and this on account of the particle Hyk; for that Hyk, with the aspiration, in the Egyptian tongue again denotes Shepherds, and that expressly also; and this to me seems the more probable opinion, and more agreeable to ancient history.
    Josephus Flavius,Against Apion, 1,73
    [9] Moses: It was also reported that the priest, who ordained their polity and their laws, was by birth of Heliopolis, and his name Osarsiph, from Osyris, who was the god of Heliopolis; but that when he was gone over to these people, his name was changed, and he was called Moses.
    [10] Typho: Set
    'Militia est vita hominis super terram [The life of man upon earth is a warfare] (Job 7:1).'

  2. #22
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    This (very debunked) lost tribes nonsense is based on very tenuous wordplay at best and very imaginative assumptions at worst.

  3. #23
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    The vikings go most likely back to the time of the forced christianization of Saxons.

    Herzog Widukind was married to a Danish queen, her stone grave is close to Engern, Niedersachsen.

    As after the massacre Widukind somehow disappeared from the legends and tales. Some say he got buried with his deceased wife at the stonegrave, others say he was brought to Konstanz, incarcerated there in a monastery and turned christian (very unbelievable). Other say he died.

    One theory is he fled to Denmark to his in-laws and took great numbers of Saxons with him.

    Anyway Saxons got the choice to stay with conversion to Christianity or stay heathen and go elsewhere.

    Big groups for sure did not want to become subjects of church rule.

    Saxons obviously found their way to Denmark (building the wall was just one thing). They only injected their legends and stories into scandinavian tales, like the Niflungen, Siegfried and other sagas.

    In order to retaliate, Saxons and their danish alliances launched attacks on christian lands, (Whether Lindisfarne was attacked or not is another question).

    The vikings did not attack the frisian coast but moved on to christian frankish land and to christian England. In both lands they established their own kingdoms. As well as in Sicily and you know where.

    The vikings were most likely a mix of Saxons, Danes and later on other scandinavians, realizing for the threat of christianization and destruction of their way of life they better start fighting and bring the war into christian lands.

    Jews are no warriors, they are tricksters, thieves, dealers, black magicians and so on. To call them vikings is so completely against their nature that it is the most unlikely group to be identified with vikings.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

  4. #24
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Méldmir View Post
    Alright, I've just read things about Gaelic being related to languages like Berber and Hebrew, that they sound similar and some words are even the same. I'll see if I can find anything now.

    Edit: What I've read might be religious pseudo-science but here are some links

    Someone claiming a Gaelic-Berber relationship
    http://www.scotsgenealogy.com/online/berbers.htm

    Thread on language forum disucssing the connection
    http://www.yourdictionary.com/commun...iewthread/2420

    This may not make more sense than the Dan people story
    I think this is less to do with British Israelitism than with the old Hamitic theory and maybe Theo Vennemann. I think only Venneman sees a Semitic substrate beneath Celtic nowadays but old ideas (loosely) linking Afro-Asiatic and Basque or ancient Iberian languages to Insular Celtic never really die out.

    If there is a connection might it be from the Cardial neolithic or the later Bell Beaker period? Both connected Europe to the Maghreb.

    https://www.academia.edu/283231/Rema...mitic_question

  5. #25
    Senior Member Englisc's Avatar
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    Some Linguists have found similarities between Celtic and Afro-Asiatic, of which Hebrew is a member

    https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wo...tic-languages/

    https://archive.org/stream/affinityb...0stra_djvu.txt

    Most of the works suggesting a link are old and I can't find much support for it among modern linguists. If parallels are there, they can be, as NordicSkogsra said, explained through links across the Atlantic fringe.

    The idea this proves British/Nordic Israelism, though, is fanciful. Firstly, if northern Europeans are the direct descendants of ancient Israelites, we'd expect far more similarities than have been found - and secondly, we'd expect to find them in Germanic languages too.

    Christian Identity strikes me as a theory strenuously trying to make the facts fit, rather than the other way round. There's a massive amount of genetic, archaeological, physical, and linguistic evidence about the origins of Europeans and Germanics - and none point to us being a lost tribe of Israel. Such a change in the continent's makeup about 2 1/2 millenia ago would surely show up in the record, but there's not a hint of it. It can be safely dismissed.

  6. #26
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    Northern Africa had been settled by Aryans.

    ME had been settled by Aryans.

    Its more that those words might have gotten into African/Asian languages, not the other way around.
    weel nich will dieken dej mot wieken

  7. #27
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    Northern Africa had been settled by Aryans.

    ME had been settled by Aryans.

    Its more that those words might have gotten into African/Asian languages, not the other way around.
    Well its not so much Aryans or Indo-Europeans as the dispersals along the coasts, for unknown reasons maps in books usually omit the presence of the Cardial in North Africa but it was there. Else it was the Bell Beaker folk from the Tagus with their own influences from North Africa because I can't think of any other candidates from the neolithic onwards.




  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocko View Post
    ME had been settled by Aryans.
    Tell that slop to the remnants of the Assyrians who're still hanging on by a thread; their fathers and mothers lived on the Nineveh plains, Shinar, well before any 'Aryan invasion' scenario.
    'Militia est vita hominis super terram [The life of man upon earth is a warfare] (Job 7:1).'

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