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Thread: The North-South German Divide

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    It´s a proven fact that speaking a dialect is a linguistical advantage to people who are only able to speak High German.
    Certainly not any dialect. I am not ware of any German dialect that is not degenerated, actually High German is the only non-degenerated Germanic language today (it is degenerating, however, this is a different topic).
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunkeld View Post
    Then you have never heard of the "noodle frontier" or the "spätzle border".

    North >>>>> potatoes

    South >>>> noodles and spätzle
    Dunno ... we also eat Gröst'l and Kartoffelgulasch, both of which are traditional foods here.

    A more correct term would perhaps be the "Knödel border" (dumpling border), that is if you count Nocken, Schlutzkrapfen and Spatzl'n as somewhere along the dumpling spectrum.

    An alternative is the "Brennsupp'n" border. The north doesn't know this Bajuvarian "speciality" for the peasant.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger
    Certainly not any dialect. I am not ware of any German dialect that is not degenerated, actually High German is the only non-degenerated Germanic language today (it is degenerating, however, this is a different topic).
    Speaking more than one language is always an advantage, no matter which language.
    And 'high German' is an artificially created language, not something pure or natural. So actually is high German a 'degeneration' or melting pot of several languages/dialects, which isnt even 300 years old.

    I agree thought that everyone should be able to speak high German, regardless of the dialects he/she grows up with. Children raised bilingual do have advantages in learning more additional languages, so this should be encouraged.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Certainly not any dialect. I am not ware of any German dialect that is not degenerated, actually High German is the only non-degenerated Germanic language today (it is degenerating, however, this is a different topic).
    We aren't talking about Wuppertal or Gelsenkirchen dialect here.

    Most dialects have certain grammatical notions, but often enough they are not degenerated in comparison to the high language, sometimes they are more particular.

    For example, in Bavarian dialects, we have several ways of travelling to/from one place, this depends whether people are coming to you, or whether you are coming to them, the altitude, the distance, etc.:

    Abi, Aba, O'i, O'chn = all different ways of saying that you are travelling down. Abi is if you they are coming to you. Aba is if you are coming to them. O'i is if they are travelling to you and there is considerable altitude involved, O'chn is if you're travelling to them and there is considerable altitude involved.

    Therefore, dialects are in some occasions even more specific than the high language, hardly a showcase of grammatical degeneration.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And 'high German' is an artificially created language, not something pure or natural.
    It is a cultural achievement, to say the least. Evolution of the mind. All culture is "artificial".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Therefore, dialects are in some occasions even more specific than the high language, hardly a showcase of grammatical degeneration.
    The paramount reason for degeneration is the loss of infliction, something that all other Germanic languages (a partial exception is Icelandic) have lost.
    High German is the last inflicting language of Germanics, a few hundred years ago, all (Indo-)Germanic languages were inflicting languages, all languages of all successful high cultures were (which would indicate a common [Atlantean ] root), it is a sign of a superior mind.
    The dialects mostly have lost infliction as well, at least I am not aware of the contrary.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    The dialects mostly have lost infliction as well, at least I am not aware of the contrary.
    This is most certainly not the case with Bavarian dialects. Inflection is very developed, though mostly so with nouns, as the dialect is essentially built around nouns.

    Declension demands that the casus and gender of the article, the adjective and the noun have to be in accordance with each other. Gender is still prevalent with definite articles.

    Indefinite articles are somewhat more developed and somewhat less developed: There is no gender difference between indefinite articles (always "a" - a Mann, a Frau, a Kind) --- but it is orientated towards the English in the way that we have a "a/an" differentation to remove akward glottal stop: An Apfel, An Oran'sch'n, A Riab'n, A Mann.

    On the other hand, some Bavarian dialects have an indefinite article for plural as well: a Kind - a child, oa/ane/oi Kinda - some children.

    Casus endings are mostly removed, but a few words retain them: A Bua (nom.) - Am Buam (dat.), A Preiß (nom.) - Am Preißn (dat.), etc.

    As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we are again more particular: We make a difference between intonated and unintonated pronouns - including the polite version.

    We also know the difference between predicative and attributive possesssive pronouns; and when it comes to indefinite and interrogational pronouns, we know the difference between a person and a thing.

    Adjectives retain their flexion, both in casus and gender, and further do we know "short" and "long" versions of our adjectives, which High German does not have: compare "schee/scheen" and "schian".

    As far as numerals are concerned, certain dialects retain different genders for the number "two": zwee (masculine), zwo (feminine), zowa (neuter). We don't have this where I comd from, but this is another example where dialect is more particular than the high language.

    And there are hundreds of other examples of how flexion isn't degenerated in comparison to the high language - and in some cases actually more particular and more developed. In fact the perhaps only degeneration in flexion is our lack of genitive --- however this is more because a stress on whose posession rather than the character of the possession is considered important.

    So your argument is not true for Bavarian dialects. Since we've taken great care of our dialects, they retain even more flexive pecularities than the High language does.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    I don't see anything wrong with it. It's a natural, historical, cultural and genetic division. The German South is less Germanic than the Northern parts. Its traditions are Alpine and Celtic. The North Germans have a stronger connection to the Danes than to Southern Germans. The South Germans, Austrians and Swiss are Germanicized, but that doesn't mean they aren't real Germans, just less Germanic than their Northern countrymen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with it. It's a natural, historical, cultural and genetic division. The German South is less Germanic than the Northern parts. Its traditions are Alpine and Celtic. The North Germans have a stronger connection to the Danes than to Southern Germans. The South Germans, Austrians and Swiss are Germanicized, but that doesn't mean they aren't real Germans, just less Germanic than their Northern countrymen.
    That's bullshit. Stop trying to divide Germany with this nonsense. It's clear you don't understand what Germanic is. By the way the Icelanders have Celtic blood too, you know.

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