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Thread: The North-South German Divide

  1. #31
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    This is an outsider's view based on the posts of Germans I've read here. I hope I cause no offense, but Germany seems like an artificial construct if such a big divide exists and there is so much animosity between the North and the South. If that's the realistic situation, I guess Germany would be better off fragmented along tribal lines and forming new nations. Schleswig-Holstein uniting with Denmark, some of the Western states with the Netherlands, Bavaria with Austria as a separate country of its own, the Prussians separate maybe with the old Prussian regions now in Poland and Russia. It reminds me of the divide between North and South Italy. Germany underwent a similar unification process as Italy. "Italy" is an artificial nation that should cease to exist, and maybe so should "Germany".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resist View Post
    This is an outsider's view based on the posts of Germans I've read here. I hope I cause no offense, but Germany seems like an artificial construct if such a big divide exists and there is so much animosity between the North and the South. If that's the realistic situation, I guess Germany would be better off fragmented along tribal lines and forming new nations. Schleswig-Holstein uniting with Denmark, some of the Western states with the Netherlands, Bavaria with Austria as a separate country of its own, the Prussians separate maybe with the old Prussian regions now in Poland and Russia. It reminds me of the divide between North and South Italy. Germany underwent a similar unification process as Italy. "Italy" is an artificial nation that should cease to exist, and maybe so should "Germany".
    LOL!

    As you've said, it's the view of an OUTSIDER, so it's of no value to Germany. Typical ignorant Allied view. The Allies split our country in pieces to tear Germany apart, because they feared its power. Divide et impera.



    States like "NRW" are a product of that split too by the way. You can shove your federalism in the place the sun doesn't reach.

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    No, Resist - see, that's where the huge issue lies: Germany's unity and strength is very important, explainable also in our central position on the European continent.

    Our strategic position in the centre makes us vulnerable from all sides - but it also makes us the key to every corner of Europe. Who controls Germany, controls Europe, easy as that:

    The Rhine and its bordering flatland regions are the gateway to the Atlantic. The North and its mainland connection to Denmark are the gateway to Scandinavia, the North and Baltic Seas. The "old Prussian-Brandenburgian" areas are the gateway to the wide East, with an intermediate stage up to the Carpathians, traditionally also somewhat within German influence. And finally, the Alps are the gateway to all of Southern Europe and ultimately the Mediterranean.

    For centennia, no actually for more than a millenium, it has essentially been this "common mission" which has held Germany together more than anything - our mission as "keeper of the keys" and "keeper of the balance" in the heartland of Europe. In ancient times, it was also this position which meant that virtually all peoples that wished to expand into a certain direction ultimately failed because they couldn't get past the tribes which would eventually make up Germany - the list is long: The Romans, the Slavs, the Huns... our fellow Germanics the Swedes got furthest, but were ultimately also stopped not too far from were I live, in Tyrol, which doomed their stride southward to failure.

    So we're at a difficult situation: Unity was mostly achieved through a common mission, which created a common identity through common history, language and culture - but with large regional differences which often go back right to tribal times. This makes us vulnerable in difficult times:

    Essentially, the ideal answer to the question would be to preserve the federal character of the German national-state as opposed to the centralised system of France or arguably Britain. Ideally, this diversity of tribes but with a common mission would strengthen us, and we could be Bavarians/Prussians/Saxons/Hessians/Younameit at the same time as Germans.

    But in difficult times, it makes us prone to both concepts destroying each other: The wider concept destroys the regions, and Regionalism destroys the wider concept. This is essentially a situation we're in now, and we're in sore need to find some sort of compromise between Secessionist-Regionalism and Jacobinist-Centralisation which can bring Germany back to grandeur and to a major player within Europe, retaking the reins which come with our central, strategically important position, but which does not diverge from the very character which has made Germany throughout its history.

    It's a difficult and old debate, and obviously a source of much disagreement: Some think that the common mission should identify the regions, whilst others think that the regions should identify the common mission. There's no right or wrong in that question, just a matter of perspective, and perhaps neither extreme --- Secessionism or Jacobinism --- is desirable, which is why some compromise between Centralism and Regionalism has to be found which suits Germany in its identity and aids us to retake our traditional position within the wider picture, as an indefeatable bulwark in the middle.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  4. #34
    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resist View Post
    If that's the realistic situation, I guess Germany would be better off fragmented along tribal lines and forming new nations.
    I disagree strongly, vehemently even.

    My analysis of the geopolitical developments tells me that there is a clear trend towards agglomeration. All struggle—in particular if of the political kind—is a n-personal game, that is a game between more than two people, and in all such games the dominant strategic question concerns coalitions, i.e. how players team up to maximize their expected gains. The choice between quantity and quality is not as dominant as you might believe; I see it as a question of secondary nature to a large part determined by other factors.

    What we are faced with is exactly the same situation as in classical India or China, except on a global scale. In the core of the system, i.e. Europe, we have a large number of players who were ones dominant on a large scale. While intense competition between these kept each of them comparatively small and even in size, some peripheral actors expanded outwards into the surrounding political vacuum. After a while they became able to dominate the whole system through their size. Such actors are sometimes referred to as a Lord Marcher. This is exactly the situation which we face today, America in the West and Russia in the East. Further away we have India and China, two once fragmented but now coherent political systems.

    In this situation what we, as Germanic peoples, need if we want to continue to be just that rather than dominated by Slavs or American Universalism is unity. It is we, somewhere around 300 million Germanics, against the other six billion. This is not a time to start talking about splitting us up into even finer divisions, but, on the contrary, to start talking about turning the Empire pan-Germanic.

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    Moderator Resist's Avatar
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    Ossi, there is no need to be so rude.

    Sigurd, I explained it's my view based on what I read from Germans here. I'm not an expert in German history, but I can see where federalism in the USA has taken the states. I'm sure you heard of the "tea parties" and secessionist movements there. Other situations are in my own country, or in Belgium. France, too. These aren't true nations. The Anglo-Canadians and French-Canadians aren't one nation, and that's the main source of our conflicts. It's hard for me to look at Germany as a nation if someone from Schleswig-Holstein prefers a Dane to a Bavarian. totenlicht compared Bavarian influence to Islamic influence. You compared Prussian influence to black influence. What's the point to keep them separated and united with an alien entity?

    Neophyte, if even German nationalists dislike the idea of centralism, how do you support they will accept something like a pan-Germanic empire, which will erase even more of their regional character? I just think you can't force artificial structures in place.

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    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resist View Post
    Neophyte, if even German nationalists dislike the idea of centralism, how do you support they will accept something like a pan-Germanic empire, which will erase even more of their regional character? I just think you can't force artificial structures in place.
    Well, I am not talking about one large monolithic national state from Südtirol to Svalbard, but about a Germanic empire. That would accomplish both goals, to allow for some regionalism while promoting centralism and unity. Note that I am not talking about a multiethnic empire such as the German-Slavic-Hungarian-Romanian empire of the Habsburgs or the potpourri of the Romans, but about a distinctly Germanic empire that can emphasise a common history reaching back thousands of years.

    In the end though, many years from now, we will all be dancing around the midsummer pole and drinking beer while wearing lederhosen and clogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Well, I am not talking about one large monolithic national state from Südtirol to Svalbard, but about a Germanic empire. That would accomplish both goals, to allow for some regionalism while promoting centralism and unity. Note that I am not talking about a multiethnic empire such as the German-Slavic-Hungarian-Romanian empire of the Habsburgs or the potpourri of the Romans, but about a distinctly Germanic empire that can emphasise a common history reaching back thousands of years.

    In the end though, many years from now, we will all be dancing around the midsummer pole and drinking beer while wearing lederhosen and clogs.
    That sounds good in theory, but I was under the impression that centralism and unity is the complete opposite of regionalism. It's like you can't have a capitalism communist system, it's a contradiction in terms.

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    *moan* Some Prussians make their reputation here in Bavaria all honour...

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    If you like it or not, the northern parts of Germany are German as well (maybe even more than Bavaria), and that Bavarians frown upon the rest of the nation with calling us all Piefkes or Prussians (I am not), just shows how ignorant Bavarians are.
    I´ve never stated that the northern parts of Germany are not German, so there´s no need to correct unspoken things! And the side blow with "maybe even more than Bavaria"...well, unnecessary.

    I wouldnt even have problems with the extrawürste, if those werent pushed through not only against us, but on our expense. A fact that you constantly ignore. The things that you say were good for Bavaria were not only good for Bavaria, but they had often bad effects on the rest of the nation, not only NRW.
    The same goes vice versa, Bavaria has and had to cope with many wrong decisions of other state governments or of the federal government. Why shouldn´t Bavaria have some influence as the largest German state and the 2nd most populated German state? And by the way, we sit in the same boat.

    The antipathy against Bavaria in other German regions goes so far that our two chancellor candidates so far, Franz Josef Strauß and Edmund Stoiber, had to endure an anti-Bavarian election campaign in the media and on the streets ("Bloß kein Bayer als Kanzler", etc.). A look on the election results showed that the quantity of votes for them decreased as more you came to the North.

    Just one example. While the Bavarians see themself already as a more or less independend state (see you comment about the CSU), the same independence movement demands, even in the case of the split-up, further financial support from the Germany, because an independent Bavarian economy would not be able to keep the independent Bavarian nation state up and running and they know it.
    That´s not true. Bavaria as a sovereign country outside of the EU could exist on its own easily. In fact, Bavaria alone would be the 9th largest state of the current EU - out of 25 EU states!

    Bavaria is larger than Ireland, Czech republic, Slowenia, Slowakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania or Denmark - and has more inhabitants as well as economical and technological power! Furthermore, Bavaria is, together with Baden-Württemberg, the motor of Germanys economy and, due to our strength, the cradle of the financial feasibility of the social system. Remove Bavaria from Germany and Germany is weakened severely. It would be like removing the motor or gearbox of a car.

    I can´t understand how a sane person from Northern Germany could wish for a seperation of Bavaria. It would only weaken you, but not Bavaria - at least not that much. Where´s the main economical power? Sachsen-Anhalt? Niedersachsen? Give me a break. The main economical power of Germany is in the South, Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg.

    It makes me sad to see so much anti-Bavarian and anti-regional opinions in this thread. One can be proud Bavarian and proud German at the same time! Because we Bavarians are a German tribe.

    You can have it, but pay it yourself. And then we'd see how much 'success' Bavaria could have on its own
    Without Bavaria NRW could compete with Albania or Slovakia, but not with any developed Western-European countries. The foreigner rate is already similar...so please save your sarcasm and provocation for more proper situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    The authoritarian state counteracts the loss of unified purpose by selectively removing diversity, thereby narrowing and straigthening the stream toward a direction that follows a plan either chosen or ordained.
    Under these circumstances I´d prefer to be a Bavarian Austrian instead of a prussificated German. And Austrians are German, too, so an unification of Bavaria and Austria would be nothing else than a rise of a second German country.

    I think that it should work with one country. In a perfect world Austria joins Germany, a Germany which respects the regionalism of its tribes! Centralism and "Gleichmacherei" stinks.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    It makes me sad to see so much anti-Bavarian and anti-regional opinions in this thread.
    You do not understand, and your "reasoning" is filled with fear of the loss of your identity.
    Do you understand that there is a difference between accepting the value of an individual and promoting individualism? Do you understand that there is a difference between accepting the value of regional developments and promoting regionalism?
    Do you think someone will deny Bavarians their right to speak "Bavarian"?
    What is it you are so scared of in a centralized state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    I think that it should work with one country. In a perfect world Austria joins Germany, a Germany which respects the regionalism of its tribes! Centralism and "Gleichmacherei" stinks.
    It is your destructive propaganda, which equates centralism with "Gleichmacherei", that is faulty. Regional differences will persist.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Do you think someone will deny Bavarians their right to speak "Bavarian"?
    This thread would indeed mind that someone would deny that right. The very same people who now argue for a Prussified, centralised Germany are the ones that, back then, in that thread argued that dialects should be dealt away with, and that folk customs and other local traditions were outdated and unprogressive, and furthermore an obstacle on the road to a wide German identity.

    Bavarians of all descriptions - be that "Bavarians proper" or "Austrian Bavarians" - may have a reputation for being a little blockheaded and stubborn, and worse for sometimes not seeing the forest for the trees. But stupid, we are certainly not. If you really thought that Valky or I had long forgotten the course that certain thread went, I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you...

    What is it you are so scared of in a centralized state?
    Perhaps that the same thing should happen like last time? That Bavaria is bought with promises to join a Germany whose success is largely founded upon Bavaria, but where Prussia has the guiding voice and Bavaria's is disregarded? That Bavaria-proper is included whilst Austria is excluded by fear?

    Or perhaps also that the existing rift will widen if centralisation occurs, because it essentially goes against the reality of 2,000+ years of German history, including the 1,000 years where we were already all united within one empire, and that this mental rift would widen even further, being divisive rather than unifying in the end?

    Ever wondered why Prussians are disliked amongst Bavarians and Austrians? Well it certainly isn't their exactness ... more than anything, it is their arrogance and their belief that all of Germany shoud follow their example.

    This is shown in all areas of life, and this is where movies like "Die Piefke Saga" come from. You regard us as the backwards province which is nice to show off and nice to retreat to when its useful, and that our traditions are to be a "weekend retreat" for Germans ... but we aren't actually taken serious under all that Prussian arrogance, and are belittled, even though it's traditionally been Bavaria, and Austria and Bavaria before that, who was at large responisible for keeping Germans united.

    It is your destructive propaganda, which equates centralism with "Gleichmacherei", that is faulty. Regional differences will persist.
    Sure, but the way some of you are putting it, the only regional differences that will persist are probably etymological ones. As the proponents of Jacobin centralism have argued elsewhere that folk costumes, regional festive traditions and dialects are outdated, unprogressive and void.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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