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Thread: The North-South German Divide

  1. #21
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    If centralization via the government is not good because it's artificial, then how is supporting regionalization via the government any different? It's still artificial. In fact without government support some dialects would be (some actually are) dieing out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by totenlicht View Post
    I'd hate to see a "bavarianized" germany, and that's not because I have anything against Bavaria but because it's simply not my cup of tea
    Exactly, and that's my point: The "Prussians" have always wanted a "Prussianised Germany", that Bavarians and Austrians should adapt to their ways and mentality --- and this is one leading reasons why we get a little touchy about what we perceive as their arrogance. Good to see that at last we have a northerner who understands the basic idea.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  3. #23
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie
    But what should I say? We Bavarians love to have an "extrawurst" sometimes... A successful party in Bavaria is a party who shots sharp against the "Prussians" (the rest of Germany... ) from time to time. "Der bayerische Löwe brüllt gern, weiß aber das er ein Deutscher ist".
    The Bavarian knows that he is Bavarian, see Todesengel's link to the ever existent attempt to create a complete own, independend nation state of Bavaria.
    If you like it or not, the northern parts of Germany are German as well (maybe even more than Bavaria), and that Bavarians frown upon the rest of the nation with calling us all Piefkes or Prussians (I am not), just shows how ignorant Bavarians are.

    I wouldnt even have problems with the extrawürste, if those werent pushed through not only against us, but on our expense. A fact that you constantly ignore. The things that you say were good for Bavaria were not only good for Bavaria, but they had often bad effects on the rest of the nation, not only NRW.
    Similar attempts to gain some extrawürste by other federal states were actively and sometimes aggressive refused by mainly Bavarian politicians, who took privileges for themself but denied it to the rest. And the rest of the nation paid the bill for it.

    Just one example. While the Bavarians see themself already as a more or less independend state (see you comment about the CSU), the same independence movement demands, even in the case of the split-up, further financial support from the Germany, because an independent Bavarian economy would not be able to keep the independent Bavarian nation state up and running and they know it.

    You know, I would support a complete independent Bavarian nation, but with complete I also mean financial. I dont see why we should pay your extrawurst. You can have it, but pay it yourself. And then we'd see how much 'success' Bavaria could have on its own
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
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    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    If centralization via the government is not good because it's artificial, then how is supporting regionalization via the government any different? It's still artificial. In fact without government support some dialects would be (some actually are) dieing out.
    Where I come from, there is no government-based regionalisation needed. Well, except the old "Austrians are no Germans" lie, but other than that, we're very regional-minded anyway, very traditional-minded, and our dialect is far from dying out. Even within Austria we Tyrolese are envied for that.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  5. #25
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    @Sigurd, the question is, should a state work towards the end of unity and homogeneity, or towards diversity and heterogeneity?
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    @Sigurd, the question is, should a state work towards the end of unity and homogeneity, or towards diversity and heterogeneity?
    You still don't get the point do you? As I stated, if a "wider German mentality" was advocated, or even created over time, then this would not be a problem. But that this "wider German mentality" should ultimately exclusively bear the characteristics of one German sub-group's mentality, that is a problem.

    You heard totenlicht - he's from the North of Germany, but he would dread a Bavarianised Germany, because it is not a fact for the mentality he grew up with, which is more orientated towards the Scandinavian Germanics than the Alpine Germanics. Likewise, we have a different mentality down here, and we would dread a Prussianised, Saxonised or Frisianised Germany.

    If the goal is to create a German consciousness, and to over time decrease regional differences, then that is one thing --- but asking one region to dispose of their identity and mentality in favour of another region's, whose regional identity is strenghtened, I can and will not accept.

    Other than that, perhaps continuously pointing out the similarities to Bavarians, or pointing out the similarities to Alemannics, is likely to be the only way with which you can in the long run make Austrians and Swiss aware of the fact that they are Germans. Otherwise, if all of "current Germany" is Prussianised, then this rift will only widen rather than disappear, and the enemies of German unity WILL succeed in their goal to divide us.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And then we'd see how much 'success' Bavaria could have on its own
    If there is one German state that could work on its on, than it is actually Bavaria. Bavaria is the financial strongest state and it wouldn't need the agrarian products of Brandenburg to feed its citizens. I wouldn't be too worried about an independent Bavaria if I was Bavarian. I would be worried about the rest of Germany getting along without Bavaria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    I have been to all German states, and Austria and Switzerland.
    Great. And what were your impressions? I am especially interested what you experienced in Baden, Bayern, Hessen and Württemberg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    I am not talking about regional differences. Regional differences exist everywhere, even where no dialects exist. I am talking about obsessive regionalism, hostility and hatred towards other regions.
    Where do you see any hatred promoted against other Germans? Where do you see what you describe as "obsessive" regionalism?
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    It is prevalent in some Austrians too, towards Northern Germans, a conception of "better a Negro than Prussian". In Switzerland it is even worse.
    Undoubtedly, hate against Germans and anything German is promoted by governments and their footboys in media, but this phenomen exists in all regions. The general students´comitee in Darmstadt (and other towns) for example is dominated by the Antideutsche, turning institutions that once were founded to teach students into cadre training units for the FRG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    Maybe not Swabians, but secessionist tendencies exist among Bavarians.
    http://www.bayernpartei.de/
    This is a small party without any political influence. Like monarchists neither are representative for all Württemberg...

    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.
    “Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.” Brendan Behan

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    As I stated, if a "wider German mentality" was advocated, or even created over time, then this would not be a problem. But that this "wider German mentality" should ultimately exclusively bear the characteristics of one German sub-group's mentality, that is a problem.
    Ultimately, it can only bear the characteristics of those who create it, and culture is created only through a few.
    However, I agree that a "wider German mentality" should be the end to which we will put our means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    If the goal is to create a German consciousness, and to over time decrease regional differences, then that is one thing --- but asking one region to dispose of their identity and mentality in favour of another region's, whose regional identity is strenghtened, I can and will not accept.
    Who did so, whom are you afraid of doing so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Other than that, perhaps continuously pointing out the similarities to Bavarians, or pointing out the similarities to Alemannics, is likely to be the only way with which you can in the long run make Austrians and Swiss aware of the fact that they are Germans.
    Propaganda, that's enough. Most of the time, conquest is needed first, to be able to exert propaganda power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Otherwise, if all of "current Germany" is Prussianised, then this rift will only widen rather than disappear, and the enemies of German unity WILL succeed in their goal to divide us.
    I see, you seem pretty scared of this thought, but who ignited this fear in you?
    It appears to me you think that some Prussians will invade Tirol and destroy your drinking locations, forbid Lederhosen, and do what not with your culture, this is similar to the fear propaganda of feminists who portray every man as en evil asshole who will abuse his might as soon as he gets in a position of power.
    Surely, a few Prussian officials would not destroy the customs of the population.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  10. #30
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    Those German states who resent the historic Prussianisation of Germany should have tried to conquer Germany themselves, and of course they did: Habsburg made several attempts and failed.

    Meanwhile, the destruction of Prussia has led to a power shift in Remnant Germany, first to the former Rhine Province, followed by Bavaria. The renewed federalisation of Germany, meant to reintroduce the weakness of the German Confederation, has surprisingly little additional effect in a liberal democracy that lacks cohesive force anyway and the federal system is now heavily centralised and EUised.

    After the end of individual freedom, coinciding with the restored freedom of our people, the German identity is expected to be largely determined by power balances existing underneath this veneer. By contrast, the idea of a neutral German identity that all Germans assimilate to is lacking a consciousness of power and this grave illness should have been cured by the events of 1848/49 and their aftermath.

    Considering the problem of plurality, we find it to be a natural occurence resulting from the neurological hermeticism of the individual, mitigated to varying degrees by social dependences and the political structures arising from it. The authoritarian state counteracts the loss of unified purpose by selectively removing diversity, thereby narrowing and straigthening the stream toward a direction that follows a plan either chosen or ordained. This forms a mythological complex, theistic or not, the shared belief in which is the basis of collective identity.

    One can tell that such an identity is absent when jokes are made about the loss of lifes and territory to non-Germans. The way to solve this is authority.

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