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Thread: German Legacy in the New World

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    German Legacy in the New World

    [Moderation note: Discussion has been split from this thread.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post

    It also happened in the USA, where German POWs were exterminated and German civilians were rounded up and placed in camps for merely being German. There were German witnesses who survived to tell the stories of the atrocities in the USA.
    May I ask for sources to these claims? If you are referring to the atrocities committed by Eisenhower on Germans in Germany then I will agree.
    I am no historian but from personal experience I know that many German POWs in Texas loved their experience there so much that they decided to stay. I have met quite a few of these old boys and actually mistook many of them for Texans! I never heard a single one of them mention anything about atrocities commited upon them while on US soil.
    I am not as well read as most here on Germanics and our history, but I have certainly come a long way. If I am wrong then please correct me.

    As I said before, blood/ancestry is not enough. Eisenhower had German ancestry too, but he wasn't a German. The mindset of colonials isn't really German either. Most of the time they have no understanding of German matters, because they don't live and breathe in Germany.
    Are you still beating this dead horse? I consider myself to be a true German. I admit that much of my adult life was squandered on less than German pursuits. But I have learned my lesson and have now set my path in the right direction.
    Todesengel, you are no better or worse a German than myself. By using that crypto-jew Eisenhower as an example to explain why we Americans on Skadi are not German enough is ridiculous. I have still yet to hear a convincing argument from the anti-American contingent here that proves their point.
    All I hear is "You weren't born on German soil, so NYAAH!!!".

    Please explain why blood/ancestry is not enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    I'm from the GDR, born and lived there until I was a teenager, and this is the first time I ever hear someone talking about "German ethnic minorities in East Germany". There was no such thing, I can assure you.
    Sure there are. There are (or were in most cases) a number of regional language and ethnic/cultural variations based on migrations dating back to the Middle Ages. These were oppressed because the Communists were intent on creating a so-called egalitarian society.

    We were native and a majority population in the GDR. As for the ones in Eastern Europe/Russia, they were oppressed because of the war. Germany was the war loser, so the winners punished it by punishing its minorities too. It didn't only happen under communist regimes. It also happened in the USA, where German POWs were exterminated and German civilians were rounded up and placed in camps for merely being German. There were German witnesses who survived to tell the stories of the atrocities in the USA.
    Well, what happened in the States isn't nearly as bad as what happened under the Communists; even though German culture was oppressed and is in decline in North America, it still exists and hasn't been actively persecuted.

    So I am not so sure that has to do with communism, because pure communism has no nationalist/anti-foreigner doctrine, it is internationalist. In addition, Stalin ethnically cleansed nearly every sector of Russian life, not just Germans. Many Russians died under communism too. And I should remind you how Russian communism was Philosemitic and open to Jews, so some ethnic minorities were accepted after all.
    Communism embraced anyone who would subscribe to its ideology, but it had no interest in allowing people in maintaining their separate ethnic identity--this was perceived correctly as a potential threat to the regime's ultimate authority. Yes, the Communists went after just about everyone, the nature of the persecution of ethnic Germans had specific characteristics and motives.

    As I said before, blood/ancestry is not enough. Eisenhower had German ancestry too, but he wasn't a German. The mindset of colonials isn't really German either. Most of the time they have no understanding of German matters, because they don't live and breathe in Germany.
    Ay, here we go again. You claim to come from the GDR, well that means your "Germaness" has gone through two generations of Communist polluting as far as I'm concerned, while mine has a direct connection to East Prussia. In my books that puts me one up on you, but truth be told I'm not here to engage in this kind of petty squabbling, so believe what you will.

    Also, this forum is about Germanic culture and language, etc. and there's obviously a reason why I'm here, yet within the course of a day or so I've read posts by certain members suggesting that I'm not German(ic) because I'm Christian and not living in Germany (ie. a "Reichsdeutsche").

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    Are you still beating this dead horse? I consider myself to be a true German. I admit that much of my adult life was squandered on less than German pursuits. But I have learned my lesson and have now set my path in the right direction.
    Todesengel, you are no better or worse a German than myself. By using that crypto-jew Eisenhower as an example to explain why we Americans on Skadi are not German enough is ridiculous. I have still yet to hear a convincing argument from the anti-American contingent here that proves their point.
    All I hear is "You weren't born on German soil, so NYAAH!!!".

    Please explain why blood/ancestry is not enough.
    That's the thing, though--it's the typical "Reichsdeutsche" snobbery that has been the bane of German culture for generations. If people who make these arguments are really concerned about Germanic culture then location would not be an issue. The current Germany moreover is an artificial political construct, and people who accept it as the basis for defining who is and is not German are acknowledging the legitimacy of something that has not even been determined by the Germans themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    Sure there are. There are (or were in most cases) a number of regional language and ethnic/cultural variations based on migrations dating back to the Middle Ages. These were oppressed because the Communists were intent on creating a so-called egalitarian society.
    That is nonsense. The only minorities here were/are the Sorbs. Germans were a majority and native population. The GDR also accepted about 4 million ethnic Germans from the former German areas where they were expulsed from. They would have died if they had remained in Russia or Poland.

    Well, what happened in the States isn't nearly as bad as what happened under the Communists;
    That's what Americans would like us to believe, but it's far from the truth. Let's see how our "American brothers" treated Germans:

    In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets; many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring and their misery from exposure alone was evident.

    Even more shocking was to see the prisoners throwing grass and weeds into a tin can containing a thin soup. They told me they did this to help ease their hunger pains. Quickly, they grew emaciated. Dysentery raged, and soon they were sleeping in their own excrement, too weak and crowded to reach the slit trenches. Many were begging for food, sickening and dying before our eyes. We had ample food and supplies, but did nothing to help them, including no medical assistance.

    Outraged, I protested to my officers and was met with hostility or bland indifference. When pressed, they explained they were under strict orders from "higher up." No officer would dare do this to 50,000 men if he felt that it was "out of line," leaving him open to charges. Realizing my protests were useless, I asked a friend working in the kitchen if he could slip me some extra food for the prisoners. He too said they were under strict orders to severely ration the prisoners' food and that these orders came from "higher up." But he said they had more food than they knew what to do with and would sneak me some.

    When I threw this food over the barbed wire to the prisoners, I was caught and threatened with imprisonment. I repeated the "offense," and one officer angrily threatened to shoot me. I assumed this was a bluff until I encountered a captain on a hill above the Rhine shooting down at a group of German civilian women with his .45 caliber pistol. When I asked, Why?," he mumbled, "Target practice," and fired until his pistol was empty. I saw the women running for cover, but, at that distance, couldn't tell if any had been hit.

    This is when I realized I was dealing with cold-blooded killers filled with moralistic hatred. They considered the Germans subhuman and worthy of extermination; another expression of the downward spiral of racism. Articles in the G.I. newspaper, Stars and Stripes, played up the German concentration camps, complete with photos of emaciated bodies; this amplified our self-righteous cruelty and made it easier to imitate behavior we were supposed to oppose. Also, I think, soldiers not exposed to combat were trying to prove how tough they were by taking it out on the prisoners and civilians.
    http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%2...eath_camps.htm

    How dare you call this "not nearly as bad"?

    even though German culture was oppressed and is in decline in North America, it still exists and hasn't been actively persecuted.
    Last I checked the statistics about "German"-Americans, out of 50 million only about a million speak German. The "German culture" in the USA is a poor and in many cases ignorant imitation of our culture, like the Americans of Hessian heritage who dress up as Bavarians and make sausage fests. A German from Germany would knock his head against the wall at the sight of such ignorance.

    Ay, here we go again. You claim to come from the GDR, well that means your "Germaness" has gone through two generations of Communist polluting as far as I'm concerned, while mine has a direct connection to East Prussia.
    Which two generations of communism? I was born in the GDR, which fell when I was 14 years old, and then East Germany switched to liberal democracy. That is one generation of communism.
    I've said it before but I will repeat: these regimes were not adopted by the German masses, nor did the German masses give their consent. The GDR was an occupation regime, as is the FRG. These regimes were imposed by the Russians and the Americans.

    In my books that puts me one up on you, but truth be told I'm not here to engage in this kind of petty squabbling, so believe what you will.
    But being German is not judged by your books. The motherland is the one that decides who is acceptable as a descendant of its legacy, not the colonies. The Reichsdeutsche decide who is volksdeutsch, and not viceversa.

    Also, this forum is about Germanic culture and language, etc. and there's obviously a reason why I'm here, yet within the course of a day or so I've read posts by certain members suggesting that I'm not German(ic) because I'm Christian and not living in Germany (ie. a "Reichsdeutsche").
    You are Germanic, but you are not German. Speaking German is one of the prequisites to being German (see Goebbels). The fact that you can't even spell "East Prussian" correctly points that you lack basic German language knowledge, and culture without language is extremely difficult to understand let alone practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    That is nonsense. The only minorities here were/are the Sorbs. Germans were a majority and native population. The GDR also accepted about 4 million ethnic Germans from the former German areas where they were expulsed from. They would have died if they had remained in Russia or Poland.
    So are ethnic Germans really Germans, then? They also happened to arrive before the DDR was established. Like some of my relatives, who had to leave everything behind to make their escape (again).

    That's what Americans would like us to believe, but it's far from the truth. Let's see how our "American brothers" treated Germans:

    How dare you call this "not nearly as bad"?
    Yeah, my dad, and a number of other relatives and acquaintances, all had to go through that, but the only people we're missing were the ones caught by the Soviets. I'm not saying that the Germans who were captured by the Americans had it good, but it certainly was much better that what the Soviets had to offer. So, yes, "not nearly as bad".

    Last I checked the statistics about "German"-Americans, out of 50 million only about a million speak German. The "German culture" in the USA is a poor and in many cases ignorant imitation of our culture, like the Americans of Hessian heritage who dress up as Bavarians and make sausage fests. A German from Germany would knock his head against the wall at the sight of such ignorance.
    Now you're just being silly.

    Which two generations of communism? I was born in the GDR, which fell when I was 14 years old, and then East Germany switched to liberal democracy. That is one generation of communism.
    East Germany existed for about 50 years--that's two generations. You were born into a society that was polluted for two generations by Communism, and you're trying to tell me that you have the right to define whether or not I'm German?

    But being German is not judged by your books. The motherland is the one that decides who is acceptable as a descendant of its legacy, not the colonies. The Reichsdeutsche decide who is volksdeutsch, and not viceversa.
    Again, you're being silly. And don't you mean "Fatherland"?


    You are Germanic, but you are not German. Speaking German is one of the prequisites to being German (see Goebbels). The fact that you can't even spell "East Prussian" correctly points that you lack basic German language knowledge, and culture without language is extremely difficult to understand let alone practice.
    I don't give a hoot what Goebbels said.

    So I studied at a German university but I "lack basic German language knowledge"... hmmm...

    Germany has a population of about 80 million, with the global population being about 6 billion. So I don't quite understand why you're intent on alienating Germans who live outside of the "motherland". My dad fought in WW2, both of my grandfathers in WW1, and I think that they would be quite dismayed by your obtuse argumentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ossi View Post
    Ethnicity:
    an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"

    Ethnic minority:
    a group that has different national or cultural traditions from the majority of the population

    Germans in German are NOT ethnic minorities. Claiming otherwise is being ignorant of not only ethnicity, but of Germany too.
    Keep trying. Ethnicity is based on language, religion, culture, and a sense of common identity. This exists within Germany to an extent, among Low German speakers for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    So are ethnic Germans really Germans, then? They also happened to arrive before the DDR was established. Like some of my relatives, who had to leave everything behind to make their escape (again).
    Ethnic Germans are Germans as long as they keep the German characteristics alive. Language is of tantamount importance, because the culture depends on it.

    Yeah, my dad, and a number of other relatives and acquaintances, all had to go through that, but the only people we're missing were the ones caught by the Soviets. I'm not saying that the Germans who were captured by the Americans had it good, but it certainly was much better that what the Soviets had to offer. So, yes, "not nearly as bad".
    Then you didn't read what I posted. How is being used for target practice "better" than anything? The best Germans in the USA died, the ones who remained mostly made compromises, anglicized their names and stopped teaching German language to their children out of fear of being persecuted.

    Now you're just being silly.
    I'm serious, but not being German you probably lack the understanding of what I meant.

    East Germany existed for about 50 years--that's two generations. You were born into a society that was polluted for two generations by Communism, and you're trying to tell me that you have the right to define whether or not I'm German?
    Yes, I do, because I am German. I'm not the one who needs acceptance from the German people. I was born here, a native German, I am on my land, in my country.

    Again, you're being silly.
    Again, I am serious. It's how history worked. Not all people from Russia with German ancestry were accepted as German.

    And don't you mean "Fatherland"?
    No.

    I don't give a hoot what Goebbels said.
    He was certainly more familiar with the German character than yourself.

    So I studied at a German university but I "lack basic German language knowledge"... hmmm...
    Yes. Either you were a poor student, or your professors didn't bother to teach you traditional German language.
    There is no such thing as "Ostpreussisch" in proper German, even after the spelling reform. After a long vowel or a diphthong, words which were originally written with "ß" remain unchanged.

    Germany has a population of about 80 million, with the global population being about 6 billion. So I don't quite understand why you're intent on alienating Germans who live outside of the "motherland".
    I am not against Germans who live outside the motherland per se, but especially against those from the colonies, because they have lost (or perverted) German culture. In other words, I would prefer a German from South Tyrol, Poland or the Sudetenland, to one from the USA or Canada, because the former group kept their Germanicity while the latter did less.

    My dad fought in WW2, both of my grandfathers in WW1, and I think that they would be quite dismayed by your obtuse argumentation.
    Just because your father and grandfathers were German doesn't make you German too. You aren't your ancestors. You haven't fought in WW1 and WW2, so they're not your actions. You have the mindset of a colonial, not of a German, so obviously something was not properly transmitted down the family line. The incorrect spelling of "Ostpreussisch" is a sign that language is one of those, but maybe I am missing something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    Communists are Communists.
    No, there are national communists and internationalist communists.

    And I was talking about German ethnic minorities that were oppressed by the Communists, throughout eastern Europe and East Germany.
    Do you need a handkerchief to wipe your tears for the poor oppressed minorities? You're starting to sound like the nonwhite immigrants here who whine all day about "oppression".
    My family who comes from the DDR speaks local version of German and so do I, so much for "oppression".

    Again, you didn't actually live through the regime, though.
    My parents did, and educated me.

    Too bad for you I can trace my ancestry back to the early 16th century and its 100% German. The issue here isn't location rather mindset, and the real problem here is your espousing Communism as a means if Germanic preservation when we all know what Communism is really about.
    Exactly, it's about mindset, that's why you and other colonials can't qualify as German even if you live and study here and even if your grandfathers were German. Your ignorance about Germany and Germans is quite striking.

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    LOL

    Isn't this ironic? Three East German Communists are trying to convince a full-blooded Prussian that he's "not German". What has Germany come to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    LOL

    Isn't this ironic? Three East German Communists are trying to convince a full-blooded Prussian that he's "not German". What has Germany come to?
    Only one East German Communist, me. Todesengel and Ossi aren't communists, and we aren't trying to convince you of anything, we are just stating how the facts are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    LOL

    Isn't this ironic? Three East German Communists are trying to convince a full-blooded Prussian that he's "not German". What has Germany come to?
    I am not a communist. I am nationalsocialist. I oppose communism because of its egalitarian, internationalist and non-German nature, I thought I made that clear.

    And yes we don't have/need/intend to convince you that you aren't. The burden of proof lays on the person who claims to be part of a nation he lost ties with. In other words, it's the ethnic Germans who have to convince the Reich Germans that they're German, not viceversa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    And yes we don't have/need/intend to convince you that you aren't. The burden of proof lays on the person who claims to be part of a nation he lost ties with. In other words, it's the ethnic Germans who have to convince the Reich Germans that they're German, not viceversa.
    I don't know, but I think he thinks people are suggesting he is not ethnically German? I'm no scientist, but I think it is impossible for someone with two German parents to not be ethnically German. That's not to say they are culturally German, nor might they have German nationality, is it correct to assume that this is what you and the other Germans were trying to get across? I'm just trying to see if I am following this part right.

    Ethnic Yes, National No

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