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Thread: German Legacy in the New World

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svartljos View Post
    I don't know, but I think he thinks people are suggesting he is not ethnically German? I'm no scientist, but I think it is impossible for someone with two German parents to not be ethnically German. That's not to say they are culturally German, nor might they have German nationality, is it correct to assume that this is what you and the other Germans were trying to get across? I'm just trying to see if I am following this part right.

    Ethnic Yes, National No
    To German nationalists, ethnicity = nation. Ethnicity doesn't exist without culture. You can't be ethnically German without being culturally German. Ossi posted the definition of ethnicity:
    an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"
    The definition of ethnic German, in German:

    vor 1933 geprägte, in der nationalsozialistischen Zeit amtliche Bezeichnung für Angehörige des deutschen Sprach- und Kulturkreises, die nicht deutsche, österreichische oder schweizerische Staatsbürger waren, besonders in Osteuropa
    Germans who belong to the German language and cultural sphere, but are not citizens of Germany, Austria or Switzerland, especially the ones in Eastern Europe. If you don't speak the German language, don't practice German culture and fulfill the other criteria Goebbels was speaking of, you are not a member of the German ethnicity. Then you are American/Canadian of German ancestry, but not part of our nation.

  2. #12
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    Todesengel wrote:
    Just because your father and grandfathers were German doesn't make you German too.
    Once again, I ask for you to please explain why.
    Please.
    If I have chosen to honor my ancestors by learning their language, by educating myself thoroughly with every little facet of German history, by immersing myself as much as I can in the culture, I would say that I have as much a right to claim Germany as my nation as you do. You have a piece of paper that makes your citizenship official, that is all. Beyond this paper I would say that there are no borders between countries that were established by our ancestors.
    You say blood and heritage is not enough. You say that to study and live here is not enough, but you persist in cloaking your explanations with vague words like "mindset" to avoid giving me a straight answer as to why I do not qualify.

    You aren't your ancestors. You haven't fought in WW1 and WW2, so they're not your actions.
    I could just as easily say

    You did not fight in WWI or WWII yourself, so you are not your ancestors either.”

    You have the mindset of a colonial, not of a German...
    To me, a German colonialist, if they were like my ancestors, immigrated here to spread Germanics to the world, not to sever themselves from it. Along the way their descendents became corrupted, this is true. But it stands to reason that if one among these descendents have an awakening, namely myself, and who want to help restore glory to Germany, then I feel I can eventually become not only my ancestors equal, but yours as well.
    My blood came here for Germany's sake. Your ancestors stayed in Germany to help maintain a strong homefront.
    As thier decendents, by your own logic, we have both failed them. What you blame me for I could just as illogically blame you for as well. It makes no sense. You are blaming me for something that you have yet to elaborate on. Please do.


    Barin wrote:
    Exactly, it's about mindset, that's why you and other colonials can't qualify as German even if you live and study here and even if your grandfathers were German.
    Mindset to me is concentrating my mind on learning every thing I can to improve my knowledge of Germanics, its language, its art, its integrity. By coming to know these things I feel that I will eventually become as one with my ancestors. But I have to earn this right first, and I still have much work to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    I am not a communist. I am nationalsocialist. I oppose communism because of its egalitarian, internationalist and non-German nature, I thought I made that clear.

    And yes we don't have/need/intend to convince you that you aren't. The burden of proof lays on the person who claims to be part of a nation he lost ties with. In other words, it's the ethnic Germans who have to convince the Reich Germans that they're German, not viceversa.
    Nah, you were born in the GDR, that makes you a Communist, and not a real German. The GDR was a Communist satellite to the Soviet Union, and thus no different than being being born in the Kazakh SSR. As far as I'm concerned, you don't fit my definition of a German and have no place lecturing me on my identity.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    Todesengel wrote:

    Once again, I ask for you to please explain why.
    Please.
    I have already explained why. What is unclear? If you tell me what you haven't understood, I could elaborate.

    If I have chosen to honor my ancestors by learning their language, by educating myself thoroughly with every little facet of German history, by immersing myself as much as I can in the culture, I would say that I have as much a right to claim Germany as my nation as you do.
    If you learn the German language and practice the German culture, you could become German, yes.

    You say blood and heritage is not enough.
    No, I said blood is not enough. Heritage is something else. Most Americans/Colonials use the word heritage wrongly.
    Heritage is:
    practices that are handed down from the past by tradition; "a heritage of freedom"
    As most Americans are unfamiliar with the German language and culture, it wasn't passed down over the latest generations, so they are not "German by heritage". They are "German by ancestry".

    You say that to study and live here is not enough,
    Correct.

    but you persist in cloaking your explanations with vague words like "mindset" to avoid giving me a straight answer as to why I do not qualify.
    I will explain more in depth so that you could understand.
    Mindset/world view is part of culture. In German culture, there is no such thing as "German American". You are either German, or you are American. You can't wave both flags, and you can't have allegiance to two countries. If you are part of the German ethnicity, you give everything else up. You support Germany, even against America.
    If you belong to one of the six German races (Nordid, Faelid, Osteuropid, Alpinid, Dinarid, Mediterranean), you speak the German language, practice the German culture and your allegiance lays with Germany and Germany alone, then you are a German. Most Americans lack one or more of those qualities and are hence alien to Germany.

    I could just as easily say

    You did not fight in WWI or WWII yourself, so you are not your ancestors either.”
    That's correct. But I did not use WWI and WWII to assert my Germanness as Gardisten did. What your ancestors are becomes pointless if you do not carry on their culture and customs (heritage). Obama had a German ancestor some centuries ago. Yet is he German? No, because he fails the requirements to be.

    To me, a German colonialist, if they were like my ancestors, immigrated here to spread Germanics to the world, not to sever themselves from it. Along the way their descendents became corrupted, this is true. But it stands to reason that if one among these descendents have an awakening, namely myself, and who want to help restore glory to Germany, then I feel I can eventually become not only my ancestors equal, but yours as well.
    My blood came here for Germany's sake. Your ancestors stayed in Germany to help maintain a strong homefront. But, in the end it seems that as thier decendents, by your own logic, we have both failed them. What you blame me for I could just as illogically blmae you for as well. It makes no sense. You are blaming me for something that you have yet to elaborate on. Please do.
    America is not a German colony. Its language is English, it's culture is English, its mindset is I don't know what it is, but certainly not German. I have not failed to preserve German language and culture and to have German children. Most German Americans have failed to do that. They abandoned their heritage. There are few Americans who have retained the German character and who can thus be called German.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    Nah, you were born in the GDR, that makes you a Communist, and not a real German.
    Communist is not an ethnicity. It is a political ideology. You aren't born with a political ideology, you choose it.

    The GDR was a Communist satellite to the Soviet Union, and thus no different than being being born in the Kazakh SSR.
    In politics no. In ethnicity and race, yes.

    As far as I'm concerned, you don't fit my definition of a German and have no place lecturing me on my identity.
    I don't care to fit your definition of German. As I said, I don't need acceptance from colonials and/or Volksdeutsche. German is defined at the source. Which is in Germany, by the German ethnicity/nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svartljos View Post
    Do you consider a half-breed black and German child born in Germany more ethnically German than you consider this Canadian of German descent?
    No, because a half-breed isn't racially compatible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    Germans who belong to the German language and cultural sphere, but are not citizens of Germany, Austria or Switzerland, especially the ones in Eastern Europe. If you don't speak the German language, don't practice German culture and fulfill the other criteria Goebbels was speaking of, you are not a member of the German ethnicity. Then you are American/Canadian of German ancestry, but not part of our nation.
    Define "German culture" then... I doubt you even practice much if anything that was considered German culture 50 or 100 years ago. What do you do that's so culturally German aside from drinking lots of beer...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    That's correct. But I did not use WWI and WWII to assert my Germanness as Gardisten did. What your ancestors are becomes pointless if you do not carry on their culture and customs (heritage). Obama had a German ancestor some centuries ago. Yet is he German? No, because he fails the requirements to be.
    You're telling me that I'm not "culturally" German because I supposedly don't maintain my culture, yet I state that my father and grandfathers served in WW2 and WW1 respectively, and that this is part of my identity. I've actively tried to maintain my connection with what my forefathers did, yet this "fails the requirement" anyway? Considering the circumstances I've done more than most to maintain a semblance of my Germaness, but apparently I'm damned if I do just as much as if I don't. No wonder most Germans in North America eventually lose their culture...

    I think the real problem here is my being Prussian and that fact that it was in many respects in opposition to NS, which was largely a south German/Austrian (and Catholic) phenomena.

    Oh, and likening my German heritage to Obama's supposed token German ancestry...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    You're telling me that I'm not "culturally" German because I supposedly don't maintain my culture, yet I state that my father and grandfathers served in WW2 and WW1 respectively, and that this is part of my identity. I've actively tried to maintain my connection with what my forefathers did, yet this "fails the requirement" anyway? Considering the circumstances I've done more than most to maintain a semblance of my Germaness, but apparently I'm damned if I do just as much as if I don't. No wonder most Germans in North America eventually lose their culture...
    Yet you failed to use properly one of the distinct German cultural elements, the "ß". You descend from Prussians, yet can't spell "Preußen" and "Ostpreußisch" properly.

    I think the real problem here is my being Prussian and that fact that it was in many respects in opposition to NS, which was largely a south German/Austrian (and Catholic) phenomena.
    Nonsense on both accounts.

    1. I am not a Southern German and it would be beyond ridiculous if I had a problem with Prussians. I am from Brandenburg in case you haven't noticed.

    2. NS was not a Catholic phenomenon. Hitler used Christianity as a temporary tool, the goal was to create a distinct NS religion. And Prussians were not opposed to NS. In fact NS got the most support in Prussia. You are ignorant of your own history.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    I think the real problem here is my being Prussian and that fact that it was in many respects in opposition to NS, which was largely a south German/Austrian (and Catholic) phenomena.
    LOL!

    You have issues, and it's no joke. NS was popular in Prussia, and Prussianism was popular in the GDR. In fact the GDR followed Prussian code and tradition in its laws and regulations. Catholicism in the GDR was also virtually unknown. Besides atheism and irreligion, the dominant Christian religion was Protestantism, which had some history and legacy there. You won't find any "communist" born in the GDR who has a problem with Prussians because they're not Catholic.

    Where did you study German history? The History Channel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardisten View Post
    Nah, you were born in the GDR, that makes you a Communist, and not a real German. The GDR was a Communist satellite to the Soviet Union, and thus no different than being being born in the Kazakh SSR. As far as I'm concerned, you don't fit my definition of a German and have no place lecturing me on my identity.
    So everyone born on one side of the wall isn't a real German, but the ones born on the other side of the wall are? What makes them more German than the communists? We shouldn't overlook that the West was Americanized just as the East was Russified. When should a German have been born to be a real German? Were the Third Reich born Germans real Germans? Were they all National Socialist, including the ones who opposed the ideology? What about the Communists who were born before the GDR existed? Were they not Communists, but National Socialists, or Weimar Republicans, according to the regime they were born under?

    I'm not trying to ridicule you, just trying to understand your logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Cheese View Post
    I'm not trying to ridicule you, just trying to understand your logic.
    There is no logic to understand. By his definition, Erich Honecker was not a communist. Not only he wasn't born in the GDR, but he was also born in West Germany.
    And I'm not a communist either, because when I was born, the GDR wasn't communist anymore. In 1990 it was led by Egon Krenz and it was "democratic".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    Yet you failed to use properly one of the distinct German cultural elements, the "ß". You descend from Prussians, yet can't spell "Preußen" and "Ostpreußisch" properly.
    Is that the best you people can do. I'm too lazy to cut-and-paste an "ß" and use the accepted substitute of "ss" and you make it out to be an indication of my "lock of culture"?

    1. I am not a Southern German and it would be beyond ridiculous if I had a problem with Prussians. I am from Brandenburg in case you haven't noticed.
    Are you? Up a little late, aren't you? Whatever the case, so what--you were born in the GDR.

    2. NS was not a Catholic phenomenon. Hitler used Christianity as a temporary tool, the goal was to create a distinct NS religion. And Prussians were not opposed to NS. In fact NS got the most support in Prussia. You are ignorant of your own history.
    The Nazis eventually got support in Prussia because his association with the conservatives and the issue of restoring lost territories. But the Nazi movement originated in Catholic southern German and Austria. Go find the election results for earlier elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Cheese View Post
    So everyone born on one side of the wall isn't a real German, but the ones born on the other side of the wall are? What makes them more German than the communists? We shouldn't overlook that the West was Americanized just as the East was Russified. When should a German have been born to be a real German? Were the Third Reich born Germans real Germans? Were they all National Socialist, including the ones who opposed the ideology? What about the Communists who were born before the GDR existed? Were they not Communists, but National Socialists, or Weimar Republicans, according to the regime they were born under?

    I'm not trying to ridicule you, just trying to understand your logic.
    No, you've entered the discussion a little late. I'm using their logic, not mine.

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