View Poll Results: Can utopian society be achieved?

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  • Yes

    11 27.50%
  • No

    23 57.50%
  • Possible, But not with humans

    6 15.00%
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Thread: Is it Possible to Achieve an Utopian Society?

  1. #21
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    If we do not start turning things around now and start teaching people the wrongs of multicultureism and political correctness we will not have much time left. Also not knowing history you are failed to repeat it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    Hmm, in the literal sense utopia (Gk. ou "not" + topos "place") means "nowhere". That's the equivalent of inexistent, so strictly impossible in my view. When we say something is utopian, we mean it's unrealistic, only possible in the fiction, on paper, but not in the reality.
    In that case, heaven and hell are fictions since they aren't spatial places. In other words, are spiritual centers possible? Must everyone experience them equally?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by exit View Post
    In that case, heaven and hell are fictions since they aren't spatial places. In other words, are spiritual centers possible? Must everyone experience them equally?
    They exist in the spiritual world, an utopia exists only the imagination. Heaven and hell aren't utopian places because they are where we go when we die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    They exist in the spiritual world, an utopia exists only the imagination. Heaven and hell aren't utopian places because they are where we go when we die.
    So in other words you don't believe in spiritual centers established on earth like Eden/Jerusalem, etc.

    I believe that heaven and hell are not just for after death, because many people have experienced them while in life, which is the only way we'd know about them.

    Ultimately, More's Utopia was inspired by Mithraism and Platonism, and is in line with the flood tales. Utopia refers more to the divine conquerer than to a place. More writes that "this was no island at first, but a part of the continent. Utopus that conquered it (whose name it still carries, for Abraxa was its first name) brought the rude and uncivilized inhabitants into such a good government, and to that measure of politeness, that they now far excel all the rest of mankind; having soon subdued them, he designed to separate them from the continent, and to bring the sea quite round them."

    The terrestrial paradise is really at the end of the world and at the same time the center of the world, always above the waters. The inhabitants participate in it according to their own abilities, stages, or stations in life.

    If you read Utopia you'll see that everyone there was not perfect, but there were some basic laws that were followed by all.

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    For further understanding of More's Utopia, how it is quite symbolic, one can relate it to any of several ancient texts; here I will use the Satapatha Brahmana from which to quote:

    11.1.6.24, “They (the gods) then beheld the northern quarter, and made it the waters. ‘Let us improve it from here!’ they said, and made it (to represent) the law, for the waters are the law: hence whenever the waters come (down) to this (terrestrial) world everything here comes to be in accordance with the law.”

    12.3.4.11, “’All the worlds have I (Prajapati) placed within mine own self, and mine own self have I placed within all the worlds; all the gods have I placed within mine own self, and mine own self have I placed within all the gods; all the Vedas have I placed within mine own self, and mine own self have I placed within all the Vedas; all the vital airs have I placed within mine own self, and mine own self have I placed within the vital airs.’ For imperishable, indeed, are the worlds, imperishable the gods, imperishable the Vedas, imperishable the vital airs, imperishable is the All: and, verily, whosoever thus knows this, passes from the imperishable unto the imperishable, conquers recurrent death, and attains the full measure of life.”

    13.6.1.1, “Purusha Nârâyana desired, ‘Would that I overcome all beings! would that I alone were everything here (the three worlds)!’ He beheld this five-day sacrificial performance, the Purushamedha, and took it, and performed offering therewith; and having performed offering therewith, he overcame all beings, and became everything here. And, verily, he who, knowing this, performs the Purushamedha, or who even knows this, overcomes all beings, and becomes everything here.”

    14.1.4.2, “’The child of the gods,’ in truth, is he that shines yonder (otherworld), for he possesses everything here, and by him everything here is possessed.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by exit View Post
    So in other words you don't believe in spiritual centers established on earth like Eden/Jerusalem, etc.
    A spiritual centre (like a church or a prayer place) isn't the same as a spiritual world. A spiritual world is an unseen world by the mortal, to put it in other words. We can communicate with God and be closer to him in the spiritual centres, but they aren't heaven.

    I believe that heaven and hell are not just for after death, because many people have experienced them while in life, which is the only way we'd know about them.
    Hmm I'm not sure what you're meaning here, something like the expression "hell on earth", a lot of suffering? I'm talking about the Christian heaven and hell which aren't present on earth. We can only reach them in the afterlife, and we know about them from the word of God and his disciples.

    If you read Utopia you'll see that everyone there was not perfect, but there were some basic laws that were followed by all.
    I've already read Utopia and I know it wasn't perfect. There was slavery for example and there were some laws. But some things like private property didn't exist, and peoples could take what they want at their own will. Utopia as in Thomas Morus' fiction didn't exist in the reality. Some socialists tried to create societies based on the model in Utopia, but they weren't successful.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    A spiritual centre (like a church or a prayer place) isn't the same as a spiritual world.
    I don't mean simply a church, however churches and temples symbolize a meeting of heaven and earth; this is obvious in that the roof itself is heaven and many temples have a central pillar which is the World Axis that ties all worlds together. A spiritual center (whether an island or temple) must be founded by a spiritual master and must always have the presence of the spirit. Once these spiritual masters are no longer produced so the spiritual influence withdraws from that land or church or tradition. This is why it depends more on the conqueor Utopus than an actual land.

    A spiritual world is an unseen world by the mortal, to put it in other words. We can communicate with God and be closer to him in the spiritual centres, but they aren't heaven.
    There isn't simply two worlds but an indefinite number of worlds all of which are a part of the cosmos. An earthly paradise like Thule or Eden was in the golden age is metaphysically at the summit of being. All of these worlds are states of consciousness and can be seen or experienced. The gods were originally mortal and only became immortal through their sacrifices (sacred rites/formulas).
    I'm talking about the Christian heaven and hell which aren't present on earth. We can only reach them in the afterlife, and we know about them from the word of God and his disciples.
    They could not know this without personal experience. God only talks to those who are in the paradisiacal state which is symbolized by "atop the mountain" (or island).

    I've already read Utopia and I know it wasn't perfect. There was slavery for example and there were some laws. But some things like private property didn't exist, and peoples could take what they want at their own will.
    They had possessions but they did not desire to rob and quarrel, they helped each other out.

    Utopia as in Thomas Morus' fiction didn't exist in the reality
    I don't believe he was writing literature, but rather being the learned poet he was wrote a symbolic tale not unlike the Greek classics.

    Some socialists tried to create societies based on the model in Utopia, but they weren't successful
    Socialists are foolish spiritists who take everything literally and don't have a clue about the symbolism in the texts they read. See Guenon's The Spiritist Fallacy for more on this.

    Furthermore, Coomaraswamy in his "Who is Satan and Where is Hell" writes, "We have, in fact, ourselves postponed the 'kingdom of heaven on earth' by thinking of it as a material Utopia to be realized...The doctrine to be faced, however, is that 'the kingdom of heaven is within you,' here and now, and that, as Jacob Boehme, amongst others, so often said, 'heaven and hell are everywhere, being universally extended.... Thou art accordingly in heaven or hell.... The soul hath heaven or hell within itself,' and cannot be said to 'go to' either when the body dies."

    http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/satan.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Baughman View Post
    If we do not start turning things around now and start teaching people the wrongs of multicultureism and political correctness we will not have much time left.
    We do both. Why does it have to be only this or that, why can't it be this and that? Are racialists so simplistic? I'd like to think we aren't.

    Also not knowing history you are failed to repeat it.
    I didn't say anything about not knowing history. I said we shouldn't repeat it. Obviously there was something wrong with our past since we got in the situation we are today. I'm a nationalsocialist, but I am not for preserving the precise way this ideology was applied in the Third Reich. Conservation is for museums, like I said. We need to adapt it to the 2000's.

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    I feel that language is ever-changing and therefore allows for many different perspectives of the meanings of words. I am going to define Utopia as "the perfect societal organization". Since everyone's idea of a perfect societal organization is different, there can only be subjective utopia. In fact, there are most likely societies in existence right now that are subjectively regarded as utopia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exit View Post
    I don't mean simply a church, however churches and temples symbolize a meeting of heaven and earth; this is obvious in that the roof itself is heaven and many temples have a central pillar which is the World Axis that ties all worlds together. A spiritual center (whether an island or temple) must be founded by a spiritual master and must always have the presence of the spirit. Once these spiritual masters are no longer produced so the spiritual influence withdraws from that land or church or tradition. This is why it depends more on the conqueor Utopus than an actual land.
    To symbolise and to be are different concepts.

    There isn't simply two worlds but an indefinite number of worlds all of which are a part of the cosmos. An earthly paradise like Thule or Eden was in the golden age is metaphysically at the summit of being. All of these worlds are states of consciousness and can be seen or experienced. The gods were originally mortal and only became immortal through their sacrifices (sacred rites/formulas).
    To me there is only one God, and he wasn't a mortal. Even Jesus was born as the son of God from the beginning, although he had a mortal side. The ones who were simple mortals first were the saints. But I don't want to get into lengthy religious discussions because the theme will be off-topic, and because as I've said, it's a matter of belief. If you've different religious beliefs than mine, we can't view things from the same spectrum and have a discussion with a common denominator.

    They had possessions but they did not desire to rob and quarrel, they helped each other out.
    But is this possible in reality? I've doubts, that's why it's utopian. In the real world robbery and quarrels always exist, because there are bad humans with negative character, who don't want to help out.

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