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Thread: Outlawry As Legal Punishment

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    Outlawry As Legal Punishment

    What is your view about possibly bringing back outlawry as legal punishment?

    Here you can read about it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw

    An outlaw or bandit is a person living the lifestyle of outlawry; the word literally means "outside the law" by folk-etymology from the original meaning "laid outside" of the Old Norse word útlagi, from which the word outlaw was borrowed into English.

    In the common law of England, a judgement declaring someone an outlaw, known as a "Writ of Outlawry", was one of the harshest penalties in the legal system, since the outlaw could not use the legal system to protect himself if needed, such as from mob justice.

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    I do not support the penitentiary (evolved from the idea that doing "penance" for 'sin', ie solitude and being sorry for your actions) system. Most people I encountered in jail do not feel sorry in the slightest and became worse criminals due to their incarceration. Jails actually create criminals and more crime.

    I think that outlawry and slavery are the only two effective methods of punishment. I think less serious crimes should involve fines or forced labor alone. If someone is to dangerous to have walking around, than the penalty must be death.

    I personally spent all my weekends for several years working at a county waste facility because I plead guilty to some serious misdemeanors. This was better for all involved because I repaid my community for disrupting the peace and paid my court costs, I kept working at my job and my family was not shattered or displaced. I also lost some of my rights for a specified amount of time as punishment. I felt no resentment for the "lost time" as do the incarcerated.

    Under our American constitution, both slavery and legal disenfranchisement are allowed for those who violate our laws. Some jurisdictions also "banish" people who commit crimes.

    Village tribal courts here in Alaska have the state's permission have the right to banish an individual from the area also. I support this as well.

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    It's safer to just apply the death penalty for serious crimes like murder and related. The outlaw could rape and kill some women and children before he's caught and killed. It's not safe to let him run free on the streets. The death penalty is the best solution. They don't fill up prisons and waste taxpayer's money, nor do they get a chance to reoffend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossi View Post
    The death penalty is the best solution. They don't fill up prisons and waste taxpayer's money, nor do they get a chance to reoffend.
    I don't know, but I think you're seeing this too idealistic. Matter of fact, many people are on Death Row for several years, sometimes even decades. So for the time between the death sentence being issued and the punishment being carried out, they do fill up prisons on taxpayers' money.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
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    When the law cannot adequately punish and the victim or victims survivors request it may be a good thing. There are some crimes that call for a harsher penalty than the government can mete out. It should not be used lightly in any case.
    Land of the Free because of the Brave.
    "Do not seek death. Death will find you. But seek the road which makes death a fulfillment." Dag Hammarskjold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    I don't know, but I think you're seeing this too idealistic. Matter of fact, many people are on Death Row for several years, sometimes even decades. So for the time between the death sentence being issued and the punishment being carried out, they do fill up prisons on taxpayers' money.
    If you have a "justice" system where criminals can escape justice for decades by appealing the verdict several times over then you wont be seeing swift justice being done that is true, but it doesn't have to be that way, this is the result of a flawed system. One could for example look at a country like China where criminals sentenced to capital punishment are taken out the back of the court room and are immediately put to death. In our own countries we might want to have a system which is somewhere inbetween those two examples. Anything's possible. If the powers that be would want a system like that of China, or something completely different, it could easily be done.

    Going back on topic I don't support outlawry as I do not see the benefit of having criminals moving around like vagrants in our society. Where is the justice to be found in doing so unless someone puts an end to their life by their own initiative?

    People who are convicted of criminal acts should be removed from society. If the crime is serious enough then death should be the response from society, if it is a less serious crime then I think forced labor is appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    If you have a "justice" system where criminals can escape justice for decades by appealing the verdict several times over then you wont be seeing swift justice being done that is true, but it doesn't have to be that way, this is the result of a flawed system.
    The flaw of the system is however that they only have two verdicts: Guilt and Not Guilty - this maximises the chances that someone may either be innocently on Death Row, whilst another might go free but actually be pretty guilty.

    If you want swift justice be applied, but fair justice to be applied, you'd need - like Scotland - a third verdict, that being "not proven". "Not proven" means that evidence may point either way, but there is no way of telling for sure. Then if new evidence, or new methods of finding evidence (such as when DNA testing became available) turns up, the case can be retried.

    If you had the Guilty/Not Guilty/Not Proven three-way system, you could essentially take those damned as guilty of a capital offence out of the back of the court room and make sure that they're not going to be killed innocently.

    China doesn't have this three-way system, but then again it couldn't care less about perhaps losing one or the other innocent member of society, since they have the luxury of even having to restrict births, we don't have that opportunity, quite to the contrary.

    Going back on topic I don't support outlawry as I do not see the benefit of having criminals moving around like vagrants in our society. Where is the justice to be found in doing so unless someone puts an end to their life by their own initiative?
    As it was pointed out by ladybright, Outlawry should not be used lightly. However, it should perhaps be applied in some cases, where the benefit of the "outside of the law" criminal transcends that of the danger he would then pose to society.

    After that, it's a very martial system: Someone who is a serious criminal will only survive as long as he can keep himself living - on the other hand, anyone else can kill this menace to society without fear of punishment. If someone fails to kill him and his killed instead, then it was his own fault for judging himself capable of doing so.

    People who are convicted of criminal acts should be removed from society. If the crime is serious enough then death should be the response from society, if it is a less serious crime then I think forced labor is appropriate.
    What is a less serious crime for you? And how serious is a less serious crime? I.e. for example would forced labour be applied for perhaps robbing a bank, or aggravated assault/grievous bodily harm, or would it already be applied for let's say being caught smoking in a bus shelter?
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    The flaw of the system is however that they only have two verdicts: Guilt and Not Guilty - this maximises the chances that someone may either be innocently on Death Row, whilst another might go free but actually be pretty guilty.

    If you want swift justice be applied, but fair justice to be applied, you'd need - like Scotland - a third verdict, that being "not proven". "Not proven" means that evidence may point either way, but there is no way of telling for sure. Then if new evidence, or new methods of finding evidence (such as when DNA testing became available) turns up, the case can be retried.

    If you had the Guilty/Not Guilty/Not Proven three-way system, you could essentially take those damned as guilty of a capital offence out of the back of the court room and make sure that they're not going to be killed innocently.

    China doesn't have this three-way system, but then again it couldn't care less about perhaps losing one or the other innocent member of society, since they have the luxury of even having to restrict births, we don't have that opportunity, quite to the contrary. ?
    You have a point there, my sense of justice is greatly disturbed by stories of individuals who escape justice even though they appear to be guilty and who are then given monetary restitution for the time they spent in jail (and these sums are of course always payed out in full by the government, this whilst an actual victim of a crime cannot count on the criminal ever being able to pay them the money that has been awarded them in damages by the court).

    In such instances where the guilt issue is in doubt, it would indeed be appropriate with a not-proven alternative to a definite not-guilty verdict.

    As it was pointed out by ladybright, Outlawry should not be used lightly. However, it should perhaps be applied in some cases, where the benefit of the "outside of the law" criminal transcends that of the danger he would then pose to society.

    After that, it's a very martial system: Someone who is a serious criminal will only survive as long as he can keep himself living - on the other hand, anyone else can kill this menace to society without fear of punishment. If someone fails to kill him and his killed instead, then it was his own fault for judging himself capable of doing so.
    If it is not to be used lightly then that means the crime has to be of a certain degree of seriousness, and then the question becomes whether we want this individual to be living out in society to begin with.

    What is a less serious crime for you? And how serious is a less serious crime? I.e. for example would forced labour be applied for perhaps robbing a bank, or aggravated assault/grievous bodily harm, or would it already be applied for let's say being caught smoking in a bus shelter?
    The crimes I personally consider to be capital offences are murder, manslaughter, rape, sexual molestation of children, drug trafficing and drug dealing, participation in organized crime and finally high treason.

    Robbers and people convicted of assault are in my opinion good candidates for forced labor, as well as most criminals convicted of petty recidivism, thieves and narcotics users for example. For first time shoplifters it might be appropriate to keep a system of fines, though they should be quite high, whilst punishing recidivism with forced labor.

    My views on justice and punishment are not based on proportionality or balance but on deterrence, "Androm till varnagel" (to deter others), as well as restitution. The punishment should be disproportionate to the crime because the cost should always appear to be far greater than the percieved gain in the mind of the criminal (we want the would-be criminal to abstain from comitting the crime in the first place), and if this still doesn't deter the criminal then the severity of the punishment will at least see to it that the victim (or victims) will feel as though justice has been done and that society as a whole will be protected from this individual in the future.

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    The problem with outlawry, at least in American Street gangs is that they don't use the court system anyway, so no change would be noticed by them.

    I do like the idea of slavery for the habitual offender -- it would keep him from going back to the streets and would provide a source of labour that would negate the need for the day-laborers that congregate around home improvement stores. (hopefully with the result of said day-laborers returning to Mexico). For a first offense, you pay the victim back for damages and the blood-price of the murders etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by American Asatruar View Post
    The problem with outlawry, at least in American Street gangs is that they don't use the court system anyway, so no change would be noticed by them.
    Yes, sure but it'd be something to your benefit. Right now your average Detroit-style or Bronx-style Negro street gangs kill each other without caring much about the court system. However, if you kill him, even in response that is judged to be transcending self-defence, you'll be sent to jail for it, with the potential of it being judged as a race-hate-crime.

    If he were outlawed, it wouldn't make a difference to him, his homies, or the opposing gang. But you could just shoot him in the open street and no one would care, you'd go free for ridding the society of a known outlaw. It allows for a good deal of morally acceptable self-justice.

    Perhaps the following example is even more striking why it'd be worth a thought:

    A paedophile has just raped a four-year-old girl in your neighbourhood. You want to make sure this certainly doesn't happen again, in fear this could happen to your own daughter, and take the law in your own hands, strike him down with a bullet in the road. Currently, you'd get done for murder for applying your self-justice. Were he outlawed instead of released into society again, anyone could shoot him without fear of punishment.

    In short, outlawry is essentially a potentially cheaper, closer-to-the-people method of a "conditional death penalty". For if your crime was morally unspeakable, chance are people'll be queueing to be the one to send you to the netherworld.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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