Osteuropid poll

[norda]

One of my favorite skadi posters is continuously placing all ugly or mixed people under the Osteuropid term, whether they are from EE or they are not even not close to typical Eastern European. I am a little fed up with it therefore I suggest a poll. So what should we do?

[bocian]

I don't know who you're referring to...(Agrippa?)

No matter who, I say we buy him a ticket to Siberia!

[Awar]

I say Agrippa is a great guy, so, all expenses paid trip around eastern Europe for him and his girlfriend would be the choice

The osteouropid is a sort of 'trashcan term', sort of like the Indic or Orientalid, it's far from precise. Norda, what are your thoughts on the existence of an Osteropid-like type in E.Europe ( especially the Slavic countries ), and how would you break it down?

[norda]

I say Agrippa is a great guy, so, all expenses paid trip around eastern Europe for him and his girlfriend would be the choice

The osteouropid is a sort of 'trashcan term', sort of like the Indic or Orientalid, it's far from precise. Norda, what are your thoughts on the existence of an Osteropid-like type in E.Europe ( especially the Slavic countries ), and how would you break it down?

First of all we should start with statements that there are different understanding of race concept (geographical, typological, populational, subspecies, political…) as well as its taxonomy.
I can assume there is no ideal concept. No racial concept can answer the basic nowadays questions of relative genetic closeness of Euro populations as well as high homogeneity of native populations- nations and regional groups (95%?). Another words its not impossible that small blond dolichocephalic individual can produce darker brachycephalic dinaric giant and vice versa.
I know that we don’t expect relativity but simple and easy answers but I have to notice that percentage certainty of uncertainty is greater now that it was 100 years ago. We can only imagine that it would be great surprise for XIXc anthropologist that such “stable” traits as height or CI can vary so greatly (some evid. due to social conditions) even without serious population change. I should add that East-Alpine concept was based on such “stable” traits.

The most familiar for me the Lvov school of anthropology also do not fits perfect to nowadays knowledge but such concept is more clear. The objective was to establish a classification and history of human populations in wholly objective racial terms. It recognizes that races are unlike the species genetically open systems and most populations (and individuals) are racially mixed, and that the problem is to segregate them into definable racial units or components using anthropometrical and statistical methods.
I think that to make whole concept more clear and easy for further mathematical transformations racial taxonomy was not strictly connected with regional subdivision and they divided as many primal elements as was needed AND NOT MORE (4+2 in Europe) as well as first stage mixtures.
Much later approach to subdivide types and connect it to geographical populations was described by local authors for Russia into: Baltic, White Lake-Kama, Valdai-Upper Dniepr, Central East European, Dniepr, Steppe, Volga-Kama and Uralic;
and for Poland by Czupkiewicz (with estimated percentage of population)
Aryan or “Intermarine” (old Slavic and old Aryan) race – 30,3%
Alpine race – 16,5%
Polesian race – 12,7
Dinaric race 9,3%
Nordic – 9,1%
Mixed types:
Subnordic – 3,8%
Malopolski type- 7,23
Lubkiewicz omitted East Baltic types connecting it with Polesian or mixed Alpine types.
Its interesting (genetics) that Czupkiewicz pointed relatively closeness of early Slavs and Steppe Aryans (http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachme...achmentid=5622) to assume that it was the same type (Aryan or Intermarine race-mesocephalic, lepto to mesoprosopic, leptorrhine with lower oculus and probably highly depigmented) and rather different then North Western type (Littoral Nordic- which is probably (L.Cz.) mix of Aryan and local Cro-Magnon Mediterranean type).
The stableness of Aryan – Slavic racial type could be contrasted with Coon’s theory of late Uralic admixture (improbable- genetics once more).
Probably “Aryan type”- the most popular type in Poland is even more popular among Byelorussians and Central Russians. (Valdai-Upper Dniepr and Central East European types) and quite popular among N.Ukrainians esp. Volyhnia. As you probably know our Russian friends reacted very sensitive and assumed that early Russians were more dolichocephalic and “purer in NW European meaning” but I am not very sure as well as not so political inclined so I suggest a little longer on genetic proves. We couldn’t exclude Mediterranean-Pontic influences in SE direction the same influences which were observed among “Southern” (S.Kazachstan, L.Volga) Aryan sculls.
I am not professional anthropologist so I do not know whether other EE national schools differenced other local types and sub races. Anyway we should conclude that Eastern European anthropology was more concentrated on detailed regional anthropometrical researches and synthetic conceptions rather then promoting highly divided regional taxonomy. Now we can find it quite fortunate comparing how problematic is Coon’s (and others) systematic.
We should note that “geographical” taxonomy could be very misguiding considering different authors. Its so easy to see different approaches to Fallish race. Coon probably basing on other authors placed it properly in triangle Rhine- N. Sea-Kiel and understood it quite properly as descendant of Cro-Magnon Mediterranean and Nordic (Aryan?). On the other hand other authors (Germans like v.Eickstedt) placed this type also in "Eastern Germany"[mostly Western Prussia/Pomerania so quite familiar to me] and Eastern Europe (where old Cro-Magnon Mediteranean admix is rare) including other Continental Nordic types. I suggest to look into http://www.skadi.net/~earlson/ page where you can find von Eickstedt’s plates
http://www.skadi.net/~earlson/nordish.htm
and Hans F. K. Günther
http://www.skadi.net/~earlson/falische/falische01.htm
I sugest to look at Coon's race map to see that the majority of Pomerania should be E.Baltic (sic!) I can also suggest to look carefully at Coons plates. He complicated thing so much that he evidently had problems to different types (look esp. at Borrebys and Alpines). I can not see much differences also between other types and its evidently hard to maintain cohesion of such concept. Fact that even professional anthropologist couldn’t create common, united and well described sub-race (like Fallish) comparably to Dinaric type makes me doubt that geographical approach was really so deep and informative.
We can now observe also great variety of used methods and classification opinions here at Skadi. Omitting funny and marginal ones, the large majority of location guesses is wrong. The same probably relates to classifications itself.
That is obvious that there are not many subspecies among European populations. Considering that we have 3-6 main genetically related groups, the number of possible - well defined and stable variations must be rather limited even if each group originally was also slightly mixed.

[Pluspol]

Excuse me, but what is the "Malopolski type"? And what exactly is "Polesian" too?

[norda]

Malopolski (from region in Southern Poland) is local mixed type-Alpine (or and Dinaric) /Intermarine(Arya)- brachycephalic of mixed pigmentation and light eyes and various faces form (depends on % of dinaric admix). It should include also so called Noric types.
Polesian- also brachycephalic but light pigmented with wider faces and not seldom upturned nose. I think it could be variation of E.Baltic race.
I have posted this map but here it is once again

Its interesting that Czekanowski pointed that both regions were also pred. of Nordic (or rather Arya) type before great Slavic migration. This Slavic type, as more active, migrated to the South (Balkan) and East and mostly pre-Slavic (present before arriving of Slavs and not "pra-Slavi"c like some authors tried to interpret Czekanowski's words) local populations left there.

[Ross]

Malopolski (from region in Southern Poland) is local mixed type-Alpine (or and Dinaric) /Intermarine(Arya)- brachycephalic of mixed pigmentation and light eyes and various faces form (depends on % of dinaric admix). It should include also so called Noric types..

Malopolski type is presented on the territory of one of the twi principal groups which took part in Polish ethnogenesis - Prague-Korchakovo culture.

How's about VelikoPolsha?

Polesian- also brachycephalic but light pigmented with wider faces and not seldom upturned nose. I think it could be variation of E.Baltic race.
I have posted this map but here it is once again

No, not seldom, rare, but faces are indeed wide FI 85 and with low relief, while noses are high-rooted and quite prominent, browridges heavy, pigmentation imntermediate. Polessje type is the type of Drevlyane.

Its interesting that Czekanowski pointed that both regions were also pred. of Nordic (or rather Arya) type before great Slavic migration.

it's impossible to know - no skeletal remains available

I have to notice that percentage certainty of uncertainty is greater now that it was 100 years ago. We can only imagine that it would be great surprise for XIXc anthropologist that such “stable” traits as height or CI can vary so greatly (some evid. due to social conditions) even without serious population change.

yeah, it's qute amazing how head length and breadth has changed in certain population, esp. in Byelos - head height, while Russians, being of different type lost much less in head height, so it's now 131 vs 135, while it used to be 138 vs 136 (approx). Russians also lost little or nothing in head length, while Byelos lost very much.