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Thread: Laughing in KZ Auschwitz

  1. #21
    Senior Member Kreis AnnA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloem View Post
    You must realise my "generalisation" is about the leading nazis in Auschwitz. These were the worst of the worst. I am not talking about your average rural NSDAP member, Hitler Youth or Wehrmacht soldier. I am talking about monsters like Josef Kramer, Richard Baer, Josef Mengele or Rudolf Höss.

    The nazis in Auschwitz didn't eat children, they did something worse: use them as Guinea pigs. Babies and children who were healthy weren't taken to the gas chambers. They were taken to the laboratory and experimented on.
    The fact that you can name the monsters indicates that all the participants in the concentration camp weren't all monsters. As an example, did you know that since the Second World War experiments in behavioral psychology were done that show: given the right set of circumstances, most people would inflict pain on people beyond the need for reward or the avoidance of punishment. On a a more philosophical note, it was Hannah Arendt who coined the phrase "the banality of Evil" out of her experiences and what she had observed. I have no conflict or cause for conflict with Jews or Blacks, personally and unlike a number of participants on this board. And I am certainly not one of those who denies the Slaughter of Innocents, regardless of their background. What I'm saying is that Horror is not a racial or ethnic characteristic. And given the right set of circumstances, we each have the potential for it. Even me.

  2. #22
    Naturbursche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloem View Post
    Maybe if you lived with the traumatising memory of being a Guinea pig, you would understand why these people are viewed as monsters.
    Nobody is denying that there were bad People on the German Side commiting Warcrimes.

    I think she was refering to the unique Evilness many Germans get labeled with (some were evil, some not). Or to say it like Dr. Prof. David P. Calleo:

    "Many german authors and writers seem to have a pervert kind of joy, to label their countrymen with a unique Evilness, which differs them from the rest of mankind."

    And for the actual Topic here it's true. Because they make a Scandal without even knowing what some of the People on these Pictures knew or did.




    Gruß,
    Boche
    "We Germans fear God, but nothing else in the world; and already that godliness is it, which let us love and foster peace."
    - Otto von Bismarck, 1888

  3. #23
    Senior Member Kreis AnnA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boche View Post
    I think she was refering to the unique Evilness many Germans get labeled with (some were evil, some not). Or to say it like Dr. Prof. David P. Calleo:

    "Many german authors and writers seem to have a pervert kind of joy, to label their countrymen with a unique Evilness, which differs them from the rest of mankind."

    And for the actual Topic here it's true. Because they make a Scandal without even knowing what some of the People on these Pictures knew or did.




    Gruß,
    Boche
    I agree. The greatest enemy of Germany is that collective guilt is seen as a badge of righteousness. Or that any group or ethnicity is intrinsically evil in its own special way. It's an inversion of racism and it has to stop because no people can live like that and remain a people for long. It breeds a type of reaction formation that prevents many from moving on from history.

    I have additional info from a documentary made some years ago about how easily people turn Evil:


    The fragility of human kindness and common sense was exposed again in 1971 by Dr. Philip G. Zimbardo, a social psychologist at Stanford who recruited a group of undergraduate men to play guards and prisoners in a simulated prison. In less than a week many of the guards had of their own accord turned sadistic, while prisoners grew anxious and disturbed. Some of the photographs from that study are eerily similar to the Abu Ghraib snapshots: naked prisoners posed in sexually humiliating positions with bags over their heads.

    But the most alarming scenes of all were caught by a surveillance camera in the back office of a McDonald's restaurant in Mt. Washington, Ky., in 2004. A prankster posing as a police officer — over the telephone — instructed an assistant manager, Donna Jean Summers, to strip-search a teenage employee the imposter said was a thief; by the end of the evening the caller had also persuaded Ms. Summers' fiancé to abuse the employee and force her to perform oral sex. Most shocking of all, at least 70 other people in fast food restaurants were duped into committing other kinds of offenses.

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    This is really lame. If you systemically program a people to feel guilty or such, then they will. Its mind control plain and simple. No matter how much or what the modern German people, but also European and European American people do , its never enough or right, so can never win in their eyes, they play the Holocaust card, much like the blacks play the race card. This is the stuff the Allies accused the Nazi's of doing and much worse.

    The whole Holocaust thing is partial fact mixed with post War propaganda. I believe some of the NSDAP members were agents of ZOG too.

    PS

    There's a good write up here, maybe some of you havent seen this:

    How Many Jews Were Eliminated by the Nazis?
    A Preliminary Survey Of The Question
    Frank H. Hankins


    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p-61_Hankins.html

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    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloem View Post
    People shudder at the thought of Japanese experimentation camp finding them so cruel, but what about the nazis?
    I've seen interviews with people who had the misfortune to be in both Japanese and nazi camps, and they said that the Japanese camps were far worse, and the nazi camps were a picnic in comparison

    Here, we have what is referred to in scientific research as a 'control group': American POWs were imprisoned by both Germans and Japanese:

    http://www.answers.com/topic/prisone...ldiers-as-pows

    Before December 1944, the majority of American soldiers held in Stalags (German POW camps) were captured airmen. In the ground war, only a few G.I.'s were captured before December 1944, but in the surprise German Ardennes offensive, known as the Battle of the Bulge, thousands of Americans were surrounded and captured. In the Malmédy massacre in Belgium, eighty‐six captured G.I.'s were executed by a German SS unit on 17 December. During the bitter winter of 1944–45, the Germans force‐marched thousands of Allied POWs across the country in an attempt to keep them from the armies invading from the east and west. Several thousand American POWs in the east were therefore liberated by the Red Army and held for a while, after the German surrender on 8 May 1945, and through the Potsdam Conference in July, although they were eventually repatriated before the end of 1945. Of the 93,941 American POWs held in the European theater during the war, only 1 percent died in captivity, most of them from combat wounds.

    In contrast, Japan's treatment of POWs was brutal. Influenced by the military, Tokyo had not signed the 1929 Geneva Convention, and Japanese military leaders instilled in their soldiers the belief that surrender was a betrayal of the emperor and a disgrace to the individual and his family. Pursuing a policy disdainful of Allied servicemen who surrendered, the Japanese military treated Allied POWs viciously. Some POWs, such as captured American airmen who bombed Japan, were beheaded. The majority of American POWs had been captured when the Japanese conquered the Philippine Islands in the winter of 1941–42.

    In the infamous Bataan Death March of April 1942, some 78,000 American and Filipino POWs led by Gen. Jonathan Wainwright, many already starving and weak from malaria, were beaten, clubbed, and bayoneted as they were forced to walk sixty‐five miles with little or no food, water, or shelter to the prison camp near Cabanatuan. Between 7,000 and 10,000 people died or were killed on the march. (After the war, Japanese Gen. Masaharu Homma was held responsible and executed. In the Philippines, homage is paid annually to the American and Filipino victims on Bataan Day, 9 April, when Filipinos rewalk parts of the death route.)

    After the Americans began the liberation of the Philippines in October 1944, the Japanese put surviving POWs onto ships to take them to Japan as hostages. There were orders to kill them if the Americans invaded the home islands. Nearly 4,000 American POWs died in unmarked transport ships sunk by American planes or submarines, but others survived the journey in filthy holds to be worked in mines and other hazardous facilities in Japan until the Japanese surrender in August 1945. (Indeed, after the emperor's call for surrender, several dozen captured American airmen were beheaded by imperial military units in Japan.) Of the 25,600 American POWs held in the Pacific during the war, 10,650 or nearly 45 percent died, most of starvation and disease since they were worked incessantly and given little food, clothing, shelter, or medical treatment.


    From this, we can deduce that the Germans in WWII were not sadistic and brutal by nature or general policy, or they would have treated the British and American POWs badly as well. The Japanese and Soviets treated their captives badly across the board. From this we can deduce that if harsher treatment was given by the Germans to other types of prisoners, there must be a reason. In the case of Soviet POWs it appears to be reciprocal treatment for bad treatment of Axis POWs by the Soviets. For the other assortment of characters imprisoned, because they were fighting out of uniform or otherwise hampering the war effort, or harboring those who did, referred to as 'partisans' in the terms of the time, or 'terrorists' as they are known in the modern terminology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    I've seen interviews with people who had the misfortune to be in both Japanese and nazi camps, and they said that the Japanese camps were far worse, and the nazi camps were a picnic in comparison
    Picnic, you say? Maybe you need to read up a little, on the experiments that were done in nazi camps. It doesn't seem like any "picnic", to me.

    In Dachau, physicians from the German air force and from the German Experimental Institution for Aviation conducted high-altitude experiments, using a low-pressure chamber, to determine the maximum altitude from which crews of damaged aircraft could parachute to safety. Scientists there carried out so-called freezing experiments using prisoners to find an effective treatment for hypothermia. They also used prisoners to test various methods of making seawater potable.

    At the German concentration camps of Sachsenhausen, Dachau, Natzweiler, Buchenwald, and Neuengamme, scientists tested immunization compounds and sera for the prevention and treatment of contagious diseases, including malaria, typhus, tuberculosis, typhoid fever, yellow fever, and infectious hepatitis. The Ravensbrueck camp was the site of bone-grafting experiments and experiments to test the efficacy of newly developed sulfa (sulfanilamide) drugs. At Natzweiler and Sachsenhausen, prisoners were subjected to phosgene and mustard gas in order to test possible antidotes.

    The most infamous were the experiments of Josef Mengele at Auschwitz. Mengele conducted medical experiments on twins. He also directed serological experiments on Roma (Gypsies), as did Werner Fischer at Sachsenhausen, in order to determine how different "races" withstood various contagious diseases. The research of August Hirt at Strasbourg University also intended to establish "Jewish racial inferiority."

    Other gruesome experiments meant to further Nazi racial goals were a series of sterilization experiments, undertaken primarily at Auschwitz and Ravensbrueck. There, scientists tested a number of methods in their effort to develop an efficient and inexpensive procedure for the mass sterilization of Jews, Roma, and other groups Nazi leaders considered to be racially or genetically undesirable.

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php...uleId=10005168

    The boys on different days were strapped over a bench table and their rectums were hyper descended after which they received an extensive lower gastric intestinal examination. This extensive procedure was performed without any anesthesia. The young men were crying so loud that Doctor Mengele ordered they be gagged. The next day they received a painful and humiliating urological examination. In this examination tissue samples were taken from the kidneys, prostate, and testicles. Several semen samples were forcefully taken over two days.

    After this three weeks of tortuous medical examinations they were taken two the dissection laboratory. Using two doctors, each twin was simultaneously given an injection in the heart, taking their lives. They were dissected and their organs were sent to the Institute of Biological Racial and Evolutionary Research Berlin.

    http://remember.org/educate/medexp.html

    To determine if people had any natural immunities to tuberculosis, and to develop a vaccine against the disease, Dr. Kurt Heissmeyer injected live tubercle bacilli (bacteria that are a major cause of TB) into the lungs of inmates at the Neuengamme concentration camp. About 200 adult subjects died, and Heissmeyer had 20 children from Auschwitz hung in an effort to hide evidence of the experiments from approaching Allied forces.

    To learn if a limb or joint from one person could be successfully attached to another who had lost that limb or joint, experimenters at Ravensbruck amputated legs and shoulders from inmates in useless attempts to transplant them onto other victims. They also removed sections of bones, muscles, and nerves from prisoners to study regeneration of these body parts. Victims suffered excruciating pain, mutilation, and permanent disability as a result.

    After hearing that Dr. Carl Clauberg had successfully treated a high-level SS officer's infertile wife, Heinrich Himmler ordered Clauberg to conduct artificial insemination experiments. Some 300 women at Auschwitz subsequently underwent artificial insemination at the hands of Clauberg, who reportedly taunted victims strapped down before him by informing them that he had just inseminated them with animal sperm and that monsters were now growing in their wombs.

    Dr. Hans Eppinger and others at Dachau conducted experiments on how to make seawater drinkable. The doctors forced roughly 90 Gypsies to drink only seawater while also depriving them of food. The Gypsies became so dehydrated that they reportedly licked floors after they had been mopped just to get a drop of fresh water. The experiments caused enormous pain and suffering and resulted in serious bodily injury.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/experiside.html

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    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Criminals were used in medical experiments in most countries well into the 20th century. Honestly, I'd rather have them testing on criminals than monkeys or other animals.
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    Maybe for people on death row, because their already dead.

    BTW, have any of you guys heard of the "Stalin's half-man, half-ape super-warriors Plan"?

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1543905/posts

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Criminals were used in medical experiments in most countries well into the 20th century. Honestly, I'd rather have them testing on criminals than monkeys or other animals.
    Amazing. Am I supposed to believe that every Jew/Gypsy/"non-Aryan" used for experimentation at Auschwitz and other concentration camps was a criminal, while every American used by the Japanese was an angel with a spotless record? Even it it was true, which is absurd, would you care to enlighten me what crimes did the twin children that Mengele used for his experiments commit? The excuses racists come up with are beyond ridiculous.

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    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloem View Post
    while every American used by the Japanese was an angel with a spotless record?
    They were Prisoners of War, captured while in military uniform, and treated horrendously, as were Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians. Not partisans, saboteurs, and agitators captured fighting without a uniform and those associated with them, which are not subject to the Geneva conventions which only applies to uniformed combatants. Can you identify any large scale abuse of American or British POWs captured in military uniform by the Germans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloem View Post
    The excuses racists come up with are beyond ridiculous.
    These come from Allied sources, not Axis ones, and if you are 'against racism and nazism' then why are you insulting American POWs held by the Japanese?



    Back on topic, the subject was about 'how can these German camp guards be so happy and normal when 'we all know' they are so eeeeeeevil' [queue scary music]

    American, British, and other western European POWs were treated well by German camp guards, so evidently they are not eeeeeeeevil, which solves the mystery of why they are smiling, happy, and normal in the pictures. Of course, allied propaganda during the wars depicted the Axis as being as evil as possible, likewise Axis propaganda depicted the Allies as 'evil'. This also happened in WWI. In WWI, they stopped with the propaganda after the war ended, and eventually admitted that most of the atrocity stories about the Germans were overblown or made up. After WWII, this did not happen, they continued with the stories and further exaggerated them for domestic political ends. Eventually, we reached the point we are at now, where 'nazis' are villains of folkloric proportions, and the left accuses the right of 'being nazis' for attempting to reduce welfare and place restrictions on immigration, and the right accuses the left of 'being nazis' for opposing wars against Islamic countries and supporting the continued legalization of abortion. The mystery of 'why do these super-villains of mythic proportions look so happy and normal'? Is solved by the fact that they were in fact normal human beings who ended up being portrayed as super-villains in folklore for a variety of political reasons
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