View Poll Results: Should Turkey join the EU?

Voters
34. You may not vote on this poll
  • Never!

    28 82.35%
  • No, at least not in my lifetime

    2 5.88%
  • Yes, but only after 100 years, so that i will not live any more

    0 0%
  • Yes, if Turkey becomes "European" enough

    2 5.88%
  • Yes, why not? I am fond of Turks anyway

    1 2.94%
  • Of course! Turkey is great, i really admire Turks and look up to them. Turks are a role model for all Europeans.

    0 0%
  • Who cares!

    1 2.94%
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Thread: EU Enlargement: Should Turkey Join the EU?

  1. #101
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by rusalka
    Are you saying that the Greek and other Indo-European peoples in Asia Minor would not "qualify" as Europid?
    Most people in Asian Turkey had ancestors who spoke Indo-European or Anatolian languages at some point.

  2. #102
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyelander

    I dont trust them, even if they look European. We can compare them with the same Yenicheri's. They were the kids of European people, but they were rasen by turk to destroy theyr own nations.
    I think this is one of the saddest parts in Eastern European history; how the Janissaries did fight against their own people and in some cases their own families. There are cases of some Janissaries, who still remembered their hometowns and relatives, helping them and sparing them for unjust taxing etc. by influencing the officials. There is the case of Sokolovic, the Grand Vizier who did so much for his former land and never forgot where he was from, even appointing his brother as a patriarch of the region (who of course remained an Orthodox Christian).

    There was a turkish guy, who used to work for me, he was blond, had the blue eyes. I asked him, if he is turkish, he said: my grandparents from Former Yugoslavia, but a am turkish. So its perfectly shows, that as a Europeans they are almost lost.
    This is very true, and equally sad. Assimilation is the biggest problem in Turkey if you ask me, and only recently the underground societies were able to come up legal, forming NGOs or cultural associations, trying to speak up for their cultural rights (ethnic is still a rather dangerous word in Turkey). Your colleague's situation is very similar to mine, apparently. My grandparents are from the former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Northern Caucasus and although I (have to) consider myself as a Turkish national, I do not consider myself an ethnic Turk -that would be downright assimilation on my part; something which the Turkish Republic since its founding has been trying to do, and with great success. As I said, only the traditional three minorities are granted minority rights but recently (as Turkey tries very hard to meet EU standards) a lot of reforms in terms of cultural rights, broadcast in ethnic minority languages etc. have been made. What is appaling is some of the ethnic minorities were *against* these reforms themselves, fearing they would be equated with the Kurds -for reasons everyone would guess. The Circassians who spoke up for such minority rights recently were duly reminded of their association with the Greek rebels during and after the WWI and were called traitors.

  3. #103
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    In Turkey today, there are two Greek-speaking muslim groups. One of them continues to occupy the territory washed by the Black Sea, the Pontians, who converted to Islam in the 18th century. The other group is comprised of the Cretan muslims who were resettled along the Asia Minor coast. The Turkish state began a process of turkification and today most of them claim to be Turks.
    The group speaking Pontian lives in 5 or 6 villages in the Tonya and Trabzon regions and in nearly 50 villages in the Yukari Solakli valley. Although they speak Greek, they refuse to refer to themselves as such and prefer to be called 'Turkoi' and their language 'Romaiika' (Rumce, in Turkish). They view Greek-speaking christians as a separate people, whom they call Romioi (Rumlar). The dialect is still spoken fluently by the young generation and most women can only speak Pontian Greek. Their population is estimated to be around 300.000.
    The muslim Cretans living in Turkey numbering over 300.000, reside in villages along the western coast, which were vacated of their christian populations after 1922. There are muslim Cretans living in the large seaside towns of Izmir (Smyrna), Antalya and Ayvalik, where the old generation still speak Greek.
    However, the young generation can only speak Turkish and identify themselves as Turks.

  4. #104
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkman
    In Turkey today, there are two Greek-speaking muslim groups. One of them continues to occupy the territory washed by the Black Sea, the Pontians, who converted to Islam in the 18th century. The other group is comprised of the Cretan muslims who were resettled along the Asia Minor coast. The Turkish state began a process of turkification and today most of them claim to be Turks.
    The group speaking Pontian lives in 5 or 6 villages in the Tonya and Trabzon regions and in nearly 50 villages in the Yukari Solakli valley. Although they speak Greek, they refuse to refer to themselves as such and prefer to be called 'Turkoi' and their language 'Romaiika' (Rumce, in Turkish). They view Greek-speaking christians as a separate people, whom they call Romioi (Rumlar). The dialect is still spoken fluently by the young generation and most women can only speak Pontian Greek. Their population is estimated to be around 300.000.
    Great post, Alkman and very accurate too. I see that you are pretty knowledgeable in terms of modern Turkey's ethnography. Although I know quite a lot about the Cretans (as I'm from the West coast myself) the Pontians are a more remote people, also because their area is more or less unvisited in terms of tourism. Of course this is one of the reasons they were able to keep to their native language; they remind me of the Kabardians of Uzunyayla, who even to this age speak fluent Kabardian amongst themselves the old generation and the young. It's usually the fate of those who live in urban centers to lose their own ways and language is the first thing that is lost. My friends, whose families are from the easternmost Black Sea coast, from the seperate Georgian villages, still can speak fluent Georgian with their families and Georgian is the only language spoken in villages. In Turkey the village structure is usually ethnically based. Georgian, Lezgi, Pontian, Abkhazian, Circassian etc. villages are usually seperate and although they keep good relations with the others, they keep to themselves in their own villages (each village having its own native name no matter what it is called officially) and a micro-culture is lived within. Of course living in a small village is not exactly what the young generations are looking forward to so most younger generations move to the city for school and remain there. The villages are more or less impenetrable by official propaganda and assimilation and young people are pretty much Georgian, Circassian, Pontian etc. until they start school where the only language of education is Turkish and of course official Turkish history is taught and then they become "Turkish" proper.

    The muslim Cretans living in Turkey numbering over 300.000, reside in villages along the western coast, which were vacated of their christian populations after 1922. There are muslim Cretans living in the large seaside towns of Izmir (Smyrna), Antalya and Ayvalik, where the old generation still speak Greek.
    However, the young generation can only speak Turkish and identify themselves as Turks.
    You might be happy to hear this and I am talking purely of my own experience but I do have friends and acquitances of Cretan ancestry who do identify as Cretan. Sure, they are Turkish nationals, but the first thing they say is that they are Cretan. It's true that the new generations (especially those brought up in larger towns like Izmir) do not speak the language but they use special vocabulary for everyday things and their cuisine is significantly different. It is encouraing after all.

  5. #105
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    i'm not in favour of turkey in e.u but not because they arent caucasoid. they were proven having the lowest tat-c of southern europe or something. its just that 80 milion muslims in europe is hardly necessary.
    Last edited by Axelrod; Monday, August 16th, 2004 at 12:03 AM.

  6. #106
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axelrod
    i'm not in favour of turkey in e.u but not because they arent caucasoid. they were proven having the lowest tat-c of southern europe or something. 80 milion muslims in europe is hardly necessary.
    Theres a mongoloid contribution to some Turks, but Turks are Caucasoid. Most Turks don't appear to have Mongoloid admixture, at all.

  7. #107
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    Rusalka,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but your point of view on ethnicity, culture, and geography seems to be "It's ok, we are all the same", is it not?
    "And the few who are still capable of great loathing and great rebellion find themselves ever more tightly encircled."
    -Julius Evola

  8. #108
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by xakep
    Rusalka,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but your point of view on ethnicity, culture, and geography seems to be "It's ok, we are all the same", is it not?
    Xaker,

    Yes it seems like you did get it wrong. Where'd you get that idea?

    As for "it's ok, we're all the same", I do not think that one group is necessarily better than the other -so maybe that's what ticked you off. They are just different. And everyone has a right to stick with their own in-group (and not to stick with it if they so choose, it's not like I'm going to discipline people for their personal choices). In the end it all depends on the personal preference of individuals. I'd do what I can as an individual.

    My main interest is cultural. Firstly, preserving and promoting the minority cultures -of which I'm a member of- and seeing European (and related) cultures preserved, as opposed to globalization and cultural imperialism. I'm not a sub-racial fanatic but I'm not a naive new-age tree hugger either.

    So in short, no, I do not think people are the one and the same. But they do have the same basic rights, being people. Like everyone else I have my personal likes and dislikes.

  9. #109
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    They are just different.
    Are such differences biological in origin, in your opinion?

  10. #110
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    Post Re: Should Turkey be admitted to Europe?

    [QUOTE=hyelander][QUOTE=rusalka]Are you saying that the Greek and other Indo-European peoples in Asia Minor would not "qualify" as Europid? Were the Romans (or the Byzantines, as the Eastern Romans were called by later historians) not European? The stress was on ethnos in that sentence, by the way, which you seem to have missed. I merely stated culture because it's largely the culture, religion and history, and not its genetics that makes Turkey so un-European -not excluding the non-Europid peoples, of course.



    As you mentioned, there are a lot of people of Indo-European descent, and even you can find some blond and blue eyes people between them also, but the culture of this country is not European, theyr mentality, the way how they think.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusalka
    It is, since you're so interested. Means ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer. They are your allies, by the looks of it.

    I dont trust them, even if they look European. We can compare them with the same Yenicheri's. They were the kids of European people, but they were rasen by turk to destroy theyr own nations.

    There was a turkish guy, who used to work for me, he was blond, had the blue eyes. I asked him, if he is turkish, he said: my grandparents from Former Yugoslavia, but a am turkish. So its perfectly shows, that as a Europeans they are almost lost.
    I'm assuming that as an Armenian you know about the mass immigration of Giligian Armenians into Yugoslavia and back into Turkey? And that of the German-Armenian Axis in Giligia and of the Legionares? Many Giligians returned to Turkey and added OGLU to their names, but still identify with Anatolia as being their homelands...Every Turk is an exception, because Turk means as much as "Jew" does.

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