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Thread: Can Christianity Stand Against Norse Paganism?

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    Senior Member Rozenstorm's Avatar
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    I wrote another post, but is was apparently too arrogant . Which is very plausible, of course, knowing myself. Hence it was deleted. Anyway, Sigurd, if you still want to read it, I'll send it in a PM. Regards, all.
    "La vie est la vie, c'est-à-dire un combat, pour une nation comme pour un homme"
    Charles de Gaulle


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    I wrote another post, but is was apparently too arrogant . Which is very plausible, of course, knowing myself. Hence it was deleted. Anyway, Sigurd, if you still want to read it, I'll send it in a PM. Regards, all.
    I will send you PM, dear Rozenstorm. I have probably been brought up more Catholic than you have, so I understand exactly where you are coming from. Expect a PM tomorrow early afternoon.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  3. #43
    Sound methods Chlodovech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    But whilst we're at misinterpreting and being ignorant --- is it not Christianity which issues a blanket "Do not Kill", making the man who kills in self-defence a contemptible sinner?
    I'm just gonna respond to this small part of your post, Sigurd - because pacifism makes me ill.

    When Christ addresses Roman troops he does not ask them to lay down their arms, but to be satisfied with their wage, and not to plunder and burn civilian property. Christ asks them to behave like soldiers, not ordinary bandits.

    And the apostles apparently carried knives on their travels throughout Palestina, in case they would come across thugs/robbers.

    Also, if I'm not mistaken it was Thomas Aquinas who said that loving your enemies doesn't imply that you can't kill them.

    In any event, Thomas Aquinas being the second most influential Christian theologue of all time, worked on a set of parameters for both defensive and offensive warfare for the Christian ruler. In respect to the rest of his work, they're of lesser relevance. Nonetheless, the Church clings to them as a benchmark for justice to this day. I don't want to go into detail, but to give a general idea I'll list the 'rules' here, you might be familiar with them already:

    *The war must be started and controlled by the authority of state or ruler.
    *There must be a just cause.
    *The war must be for good, or against evil. Law and order must always be restored.

    Two more rules were later added by the Catholic Church, when new developments meant a concentration of power in particular countries.

    *The war must be a last resort.
    *The war must be fought proportionally.


    Let me conclude by saying that while debates like the current one are interesting, and might just help promote understanding within our Skadi community, that these religious discussions should never divide us as preservationists, on a socio-political level - since Skadites obviously share common principles that go beyond religious differences.

    Nationalists/preservationists from different faith, living in our century, can work out political projects together in their country of origin that all sides can support.

    I suspect that what might divide nationalists/presevationists is more likely to be ideology than religion, and so it should be.
    “Tradition anchors our experience of time in memory and projects it into the future through hope.” – Rein Staal

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Wyrd is not like the 'faith' known from the christian doctrine.
    The christian faith is a predefined way, a one-way, whereas Wyrd is a web, a multi-way in all directions and definable by ones actions, that is cause and effect defining the future possibilites, not even a doomed-to outcome, just a collection of possibilites. That is something complete different. Wyrd evolves around the indivual, the christian faith is the same for all.
    I find it remarkable that you denounce Christianity as a 'predefined way'. Who do you think defends free will in this corrupted, modern world? That's right, it's not atheists. Christians defend free will. Pick any prominent atheist, confront him/her with the question of free will, and he/she will be forced to be philosophically/logically consistent and deny that there is anything of the sort.

    Without free will we're nothing but slaves.

    I happen to think the Web of Wyrd is a pretty self-evident concept. Our lives are affected by the cosmic dance of cause & effect. But there is Something beyond Wyrd, above Wyrd, independent of Wyrd, something which gives us the power, the possibility to be more than the result of cause & effect, more than a mere cue ball or plaything. That Something is the Source of All. Not Wodan/Óðinn, for he is subject to Wyrd. No, that Source is God.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Hierwend's Avatar
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    Man's control over wyrd is a tricky thing to debate. If you don't acknowledge it's presence then obviously you are subject to it and are led by cause and effect. Recognising wyrd and acting against it doesn't free you from it because you're actions are still being influenced by it through your rebellion, if you think about it. Ever read Oedipus or any Greek tragedy for that matter?

    The central theme is man recieving prophecy and trying to avoid the predicted out come and through trying to avoid it causing it, illustrating that nothing is above fate or wyrd.

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    Hierwend,

    You're right, it's tricky.

    But having free will doesn't mean that you're completely free from the Web of Wyrd. We will always have to live with the repercussions of the vast complexity of past deeds & happenings. Wyrd exists all right. I'm not sure though, whether you can equate Wyrd with the Greek notion of Fate. (I don't care much for fatalism.)

    If you believe that Wyrd is above all, then the minds (and therefore the deeds) of Men are completely dictated by past events. Through a Darwinistic process inevitably. I refuse to believe that.

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    Senior Member Hierwend's Avatar
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    In my opinion wyrd and fate are essentially the same, their differences really being the differences between the Greek sprit and the Germanic spirit.

    I can agree that free-will doesn't equate to becomming free from the web of wyrd. I think free-will is directly getting involved in your wyrd, realizing that your actions have consequences and acting accordingly. Personally I find reducing things to action-reaction and cause and effect oddly freeing. It wouldn't be an enjoyable way to live everyday but it's quite useful for planning, problem solving, etc.

    I hope that makes sense, this is my second or third attempt on a response(I decided shorter is better). I find it very easy to type myself in circles and get lost trying to outwardly express my thoughts on abstract concepts such as wyrd.

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    Senior Member Hrodnand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hierwend View Post
    In my opinion wyrd and fate are essentially the same
    Not quite, you see, imagine Wyrd as a huge river, constantly flowing and having it's own "rules" on different parts, sometimes faster and energetic, while on other parts slower and more calm, but constantly flowing. Now imagine yourself having your own boat on this "river"(as your individual life) and holding the steering paddle in your hand. While you steer your boat to whichever direction you want(never against the flux!), you can choose your directions by the "rules of the river", this would include that you can't make sudden 90 degree turns (as in life), and that you have to keep your boat straight and balanced to be able to go through the more quicker parts, etc.
    To put it in another perspective, you control your own fate but the outcome of actions and deeds are happening by the rules of Wyrd, which one can learn about through observation, but no one is above, it is the absolute and primordial law of life.
    :Überschöpfung:



  9. #49
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef
    I find it remarkable that you denounce Christianity as a 'predefined way'. Who do you think defends free will in this corrupted, modern world? That's right, it's not atheists. Christians defend free will. Pick any prominent atheist, confront him/her with the question of free will, and he/she will be forced to be philosophically/logically consistent and deny that there is anything of the sort.

    Without free will we're nothing but slaves.
    Defending free will? The free will exists despite the christian doctrine, and I cant remember any historical missionizer promoting free will. Quite the opposite.
    There are also people claiming christianity would have forwarded science and technique. Again, the opposite is true. Kepler ended for his heretical view that the earth turns around the sun and not vice versa almost on the stake, only his influencial family and a patron saved him from that, the most technical inventions were thought to be demonic or the devil's work, and scientists ended more than often on the stake for their devilish works and views (unless the inventions were for warfare purposes to suppress more folks to the jewish way).
    Until 1898 people were burned on the stake, about 1500 years to try to rot out the free will and the germanic spirit, and still we are here. Despite christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef
    I happen to think the Web of Wyrd is a pretty self-evident concept. Our lives are affected by the cosmic dance of cause & effect. But there is Something beyond Wyrd, above Wyrd, independent of Wyrd, something which gives us the power, the possibility to be more than the result of cause & effect, more than a mere cue ball or plaything. That Something is the Source of All. Not Wodan/Óðinn, for he is subject to Wyrd. No, that Source is:
    The human being, the human spirit, the human will.

    There is no God, not your wannabe-almighty creative god. Where is your God? Thought it is almighty? Obviously it is not, otherwise the world wouldnt look like it does. Since it is supposed to be almighty, and thus unlimited in his actions, why do you think does it not communicate with us? Has it lost its interest? Then it is of no use at all for us. Has it lost its almighty power? Then it is of no interest for us. The most important question though is, what/who is it? It is a jewish god, do you think it would do anything in favour for us? Certainly not. The happy-flower power-liberal 'all human are equal' bs is the source of our demise, certainly not the salvation from it.

    We Germanics are not the chosen ones, even if we assume that this 'god' exists, it is the god for the jews, this desert god can never be the god for us. For us, it is the devil, the evil demon, Satan if you will. Gods are connected to their folk, and unless we want to assimilate into the jewish race it is of absolutely no use for us, we cannot expect anything good from it.


    Odin is not 'subject to Wyrd', noone is subject to Wyrd. Wyrd is not a static fate (unlike christianity). When someone says 'we are doomed', the christians answer is 'let's pray', while the answer of a free will man is 'let's fight'. That is the fundamental difference. Cause and effect had led to this situation, but we dont need to blindly accept the fate (christianity), it is still subject to being changed (Wyrd) - by us.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Defending free will? The free will exists despite the christian doctrine, and I cant remember any historical missionizer promoting free will. Quite the opposite.
    Even in this very thread I gave an example:

    As chief adviser to Charles the Great, [Alcuin] bravely tackled the emperor over his policy of forcing pagans to be baptised on pain of death. He argued, “Faith is a free act of the will, not a forced act. We must appeal to the conscience, not compel it by violence. You can force people to be baptised, but you cannot force them to believe.” His arguments prevailed; Charlemagne abolished the death penalty for paganism in 797. (Source)

    Or take one of the most important Christian thinkers of all time, Saint Thomas Aquinas:

    The question frequently arose whether the children of Jews and other heretics and non-believers should be baptized against the will of their parents. Two schools of thought were generally followed: The First School: That since all persons who were not baptized would be damned to hell, all children should be baptized. This was the position of John Duns Scotus. It could be argued that this approach reduced the sacrament of baptism to nothing but a "magical" rite. The Second School: That it violated natural law to disrupt the order of the family by interfering.

    Therefore, even if children were being reared in error, the Church had no authority to intervene. This was the position taken by Aquinas. From Summa Theologica II-II Q. 10 Art. 12:

    Injustice should be done to no man. Now it would be an injustice to Jews if their children were to be baptized against their will, since they would lose the rights of parental authority over their children as soon as these were Christians. Therefore these should not be baptized against their parent's will. The custom of the Church has been given very great authority and ought to be jealously observed in all things, since the very doctrine of Catholic Doctors derives its authority from the Church. Hence we ought to abide by the authority of the Church rather than that of an Augustine or a Jerome or any doctor whatever. Now it was never the custom of the Church to baptize the children of Jews against the will of their parents. There are two reasons for this custom. One is on account of the danger to faith. For children baptized before coming into the use of reason, might easily be persuaded by their parents to renounce what they had unknowingly embraced; and this would be detrimental to the faith. The other reason is that it is against natural justice. For a child is by nature part of its father: at first, it is not distinct from its parents as to its body, so long as it is enfolded within the mother's womb and later on after birth, and before it has the use of free will, it is enfolded in the care of its parents, like a spiritual womb. So long as a man does not have the use of reason, he is no different from an irrational animal. Hence, it would be contrary to natural justice, if a child, before coming to the use of reason, were to be taken away from its parent's custody, or anything done against its parent's wish.

    (Source)

    Furthermore, who do you think challenges the prominent atheists (Dawkins, Dennett, etc.) every time these deny the existence of free will? Like I said, christians do. Also, the most common christian defence against the Problem of Evil is the argument from free will.

    There are also people claiming christianity would have forwarded science and technique. Again, the opposite is true. Kepler ended for his heretical view that the earth turns around the sun and not vice versa almost on the stake, only his influencial family and a patron saved him from that, the most technical inventions were thought to be demonic or the devil's work, and scientists ended more than often on the stake for their devilish works and views (unless the inventions were for warfare purposes to suppress more folks to the jewish way).
    Until 1898 people were burned on the stake, about 1500 years to try to rot out the free will and the germanic spirit, and still we are here. Despite christianity.
    I'll reserve the subject of Kepler and science & christianity for another thread, for purposes of relative brevity. But I will say that I find it remarkable that you complain about people being burned at the stake by christians, while human sacrifice was a widespread practice among our ancient Germanic ancestors.

    The human being, the human spirit, the human will.

    There is no God, not your wannabe-almighty creative god. Where is your God? Thought it is almighty? Obviously it is not, otherwise the world wouldnt look like it does. Since it is supposed to be almighty, and thus unlimited in his actions, why do you think does it not communicate with us? Has it lost its interest? Then it is of no use at all for us. Has it lost its almighty power? Then it is of no interest for us. The most important question though is, what/who is it? It is a jewish god, do you think it would do anything in favour for us? Certainly not. The happy-flower power-liberal 'all human are equal' bs is the source of our demise, certainly not the salvation from it.
    What makes you say God should communicate with us like we communicate with each other? To prove He is almighty and/or exists? You mean you decide what a Supreme Being should look like or how He should act?

    We Germanics are not the chosen ones, even if we assume that this 'god' exists, it is the god for the jews, this desert god can never be the god for us. For us, it is the devil, the evil demon, Satan if you will. Gods are connected to their folk, and unless we want to assimilate into the jewish race it is of absolutely no use for us, we cannot expect anything good from it.
    You're an atheist, so you don't believe in transcendental beings, so why would you call God an evil demon?

    Odin is not 'subject to Wyrd', noone is subject to Wyrd. Wyrd is not a static fate (unlike christianity). When someone says 'we are doomed', the christians answer is 'let's pray', while the answer of a free will man is 'let's fight'. That is the fundamental difference. Cause and effect had led to this situation, but we dont need to blindly accept the fate (christianity), it is still subject to being changed (Wyrd) - by us.
    First of all, why do you revel in such gross charicatures and inaccuracies? Christians have been fighting their asses off for the past 1500 years. They've kept the muslims out for more than a thousand years. First you describe christians as intolerant witch burners and hardliners, then you say they're pushovers. What's it gonna be?

    Second, according to Hrodnand, who identifies himself as a heathen:

    To put it in another perspective, you control your own fate but the outcome of actions and deeds are happening by the rules of Wyrd, which one can learn about through observation, but no one is above, it is the absolute and primordial law of life.

    Wodan/Óðinn is indeed subject to Wyrd. He dies in the Ragnarǫk, for crying out loud.

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